To KT
For the french the average alsatian man is blond and blue eyed
For the french the average alsatian man is blond and blue eyed
Alsace
"For the french the average alsatian man is blond and blue eyed "...
it it the way Germans are seen by the french.
it it the way Germans are seen by the french.
Well, actually, it's the stereotype Americans have of Germans too, and even the Alsatian course I mentioned shows a Blond lady on the cover. It must be just a way that some people cope with differences by stereotyping groups by hair color.
I used to live in France and I've seen exceptions to all the stereotypes. I've seen a dark-haired Swede and lots of dark-haired Germans. I know that the Swedes did a lot of invading in Germany and Alsace, so I wonder if that has anything to do with the blonding of these areas. I have no idea, though. With genetic testing one can find out little family secrets, but not ALL of them.
Invité,
Did you learn Alsatian from your Grandmother? People say that it differs from village to village (they say the same sort of thing in parts of Germany as well, oddly enough.) to the point that it is not understandable from one village to another. I'm not sure I believe that, though.
I used to live in France and I've seen exceptions to all the stereotypes. I've seen a dark-haired Swede and lots of dark-haired Germans. I know that the Swedes did a lot of invading in Germany and Alsace, so I wonder if that has anything to do with the blonding of these areas. I have no idea, though. With genetic testing one can find out little family secrets, but not ALL of them.
Invité,
Did you learn Alsatian from your Grandmother? People say that it differs from village to village (they say the same sort of thing in parts of Germany as well, oddly enough.) to the point that it is not understandable from one village to another. I'm not sure I believe that, though.
To K.T.,
I just learnt a few words, her dialect is already a "frankisch" one because she's from Sarre-Union, this is not a typical "alemannisch" dialect. She often told me that she hardly can understand those of southern Alsace which (for her) seem more swiss than alsatian.
Example of her dialect:
German: Das ist eine Katze
Dialect: Dis isch äne/e Katze
It's very similar to german, so we cannot say it's an independent language.
I just learnt a few words, her dialect is already a "frankisch" one because she's from Sarre-Union, this is not a typical "alemannisch" dialect. She often told me that she hardly can understand those of southern Alsace which (for her) seem more swiss than alsatian.
Example of her dialect:
German: Das ist eine Katze
Dialect: Dis isch äne/e Katze
It's very similar to german, so we cannot say it's an independent language.
<<<If the Alsatians wished to split from France they would had to join Germany, the independence of Alsace alone is not feasible. >>>
Everything goes in Europe: Austria is independent, as well as Luxembourg. Territorial frontiers and centralistic concepts are not very important anymore, regionalism and subsidiarity are the future of Europe - this applies also to regional languages.
Subsidiarity from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiarity :
Subsidiarity is the principle which states that matters ought to be handled by the smallest (or, the lowest) competent authority. The Oxford English Dictionary defines subsidiarity as the idea that a central authority should have a subsidiary function, performing only those tasks which cannot be performed effectively at a more immediate or local level.
The word subsidiarity is derived from the Latin word subsidiarius and has its origins in Catholic social teaching. The concept or principle is found in several constitutions around the world (see for example the Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution).
It is presently best known as a fundamental principle of European Union law....
Everything goes in Europe: Austria is independent, as well as Luxembourg. Territorial frontiers and centralistic concepts are not very important anymore, regionalism and subsidiarity are the future of Europe - this applies also to regional languages.
Subsidiarity from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiarity :
Subsidiarity is the principle which states that matters ought to be handled by the smallest (or, the lowest) competent authority. The Oxford English Dictionary defines subsidiarity as the idea that a central authority should have a subsidiary function, performing only those tasks which cannot be performed effectively at a more immediate or local level.
The word subsidiarity is derived from the Latin word subsidiarius and has its origins in Catholic social teaching. The concept or principle is found in several constitutions around the world (see for example the Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution).
It is presently best known as a fundamental principle of European Union law....
"I know that the Swedes did a lot of invading in Germany and Alsace"
???
???
If there is a place that was invaded by Swedes or other Scandinavians(Vikings then) outside their domain that could only be Normandy. Many Normans are blond and blue eyed. This phsysical features are persisting among the Quebeckers since most of them trace their origin from Normandy.
I have read that mainly the hair color of little children is significant for ethnologic classification.
Invité,
Thank-you for your comments. I wondered about the difference between northern and southern Alsace. I found it easier to understand northern Alsatian speech, than (what sounded to me like) "Schweitzer Deutsch" in the Haut Rhin area.
_____________________________________________________
About the Swedes. I'm not an expert on European history at all, but I remember what I was told in various parts of Europe when I was there.
The Swedes were in Bavaria and Alsace during the Thirty Years War. This address will tell you a little more about the Swedes in Germany. Scroll down to the information about Die Kinderzeche. The info is in English.
http://www.dinkelsbuehl.de/ISY/index.php?get=510
Google "Swedes in Alsace" and you'll get a lot of hits. It's not my intention to start a war here, though. These were the Swedes of 1633, not today. Alsatians haven't completely forgotten about this, either.
Thank-you for your comments. I wondered about the difference between northern and southern Alsace. I found it easier to understand northern Alsatian speech, than (what sounded to me like) "Schweitzer Deutsch" in the Haut Rhin area.
_____________________________________________________
About the Swedes. I'm not an expert on European history at all, but I remember what I was told in various parts of Europe when I was there.
The Swedes were in Bavaria and Alsace during the Thirty Years War. This address will tell you a little more about the Swedes in Germany. Scroll down to the information about Die Kinderzeche. The info is in English.
http://www.dinkelsbuehl.de/ISY/index.php?get=510
Google "Swedes in Alsace" and you'll get a lot of hits. It's not my intention to start a war here, though. These were the Swedes of 1633, not today. Alsatians haven't completely forgotten about this, either.
Alsace is, if compared to its wealthy neighbors Baden (Germany) and Swizzerland, relatively poor. If tourism and Swizz/German enterprises implanted in Alsace weren't there, the contrast would be even stronger. What is the reason for this? Do different languages (French in Alsace, Allemanic German in Baden and Swizzerland) have some impact on economy? Or is it the legislation?
But Alsace is richer than the French average. Maybe Paris can't stand this.
"But Alsace is richer than the French average."
Wrong.
For EU average = 100:
- France: 111.4
- Alsace (F): 107.2
- Germany: 108.4
- Saarland (D): 98.7
- Rheinland-Pfalz (D): 95.7
- Nordrhein-Westfalen (Germany's most populous State): 107.5
What's your point?
Are you Spanish, just by chance?
Wrong.
For EU average = 100:
- France: 111.4
- Alsace (F): 107.2
- Germany: 108.4
- Saarland (D): 98.7
- Rheinland-Pfalz (D): 95.7
- Nordrhein-Westfalen (Germany's most populous State): 107.5
What's your point?
Are you Spanish, just by chance?
Where did you got that data? Alsace has a wealthy economy and its unemployment rate is well below the French average. Wikipedia says:
According to INSEE, Alsace had a gross domestic product of 44.3 billion euros in 2002. With a GDP per capita of €24,804, it was the second-place région of France, losing only to Île-de-France. 68% of its jobs are in the services; 25% are in industry, making Alsace one of France's most industrialised régions.
Soon Alsace will surpass Île-de-France as long as Germany grows at a higher rate than his neighbor.
According to INSEE, Alsace had a gross domestic product of 44.3 billion euros in 2002. With a GDP per capita of €24,804, it was the second-place région of France, losing only to Île-de-France. 68% of its jobs are in the services; 25% are in industry, making Alsace one of France's most industrialised régions.
Soon Alsace will surpass Île-de-France as long as Germany grows at a higher rate than his neighbor.
In
Le monde diplomatique (French paper)
Alsace, exception to the rule
http://mondediplo.com/1998/05/07bihr (English) and
http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/1998/05/BIHR/10462 (French)
you will find the following passus:
While Alsace as a region is relatively prosperous compared to the rest of France, it cuts a poor figure in comparison to the German and Swiss neighbours with whom it shares increasingly open borders.
Si l’Alsace est mieux lotie que la plupart des régions françaises, elle fait piètre figure dès lors qu’elle se compare à ses voisines allemandes et plus encore suisses, sur lesquelles elle est pourtant de plus en plus ouverte.
complete passus:
""
Although Alsace is peripheral in relation to the rest of France, in the past three decades its geographical position has placed it right at the heart of the European arena. It has become increasingly integrated into the economic realities of the Rhineland. It has a ringside seat for observing the strengthening of German dominance over Europe, and for feeling its effects, good and bad. It is certainly true that this integration has brought Alsace a large part of its prosperity, but it also accounts for a fair measure of its weakness and fragility. For example, 60,000 Alsatians have to cross the German and Swiss borders every day to go to work - a figure which has grown steadily in recent years. Suddenly, these border populations are finding themselves transformed into "immigrants".
That is not all. One fifth of the land available for house-building along the border has been bought up by Swiss and Germans, and German capital has gone about buying up Alsace firms that are either doing well or about to go under. While Alsace as a region is relatively prosperous compared to the rest of France, it cuts a poor figure in comparison to the German and Swiss neighbours with whom it shares increasingly open borders.
""
and in French:
""
Région périphérique au sein de l’espace national, l’Alsace s’est vue précipitée au cours des trois dernières décennies au coeur de l’arène européenne, de plus en plus intégrée à l’espace économique rhénan, placée aux premières loges pour assister au renforcement de l’hégémonie allemande sur l’Europe et pour en subir les effets, à la fois bénéfiques et pervers. Car, si cette intégration vaut à la région une bonne partie de sa prospérité, elle lui fournit aussi l’aune de sa fragilité et ses faiblesses. Elle se traduit, par exemple, par la nécessité pour quelque 60 000 Alsaciens de traverser quotidiennement la frontière allemande ou suisse, un chiffre qui n’a cessé de grossir au fil des ans. Du coup, ces transfrontaliers deviennent, eux aussi, des sortes d’immigrés.
Cette intégration se traduit aussi par l’achat d’un cinquième des terrains à construire ou des maisons d’habitation par des Allemands ou par des Suisses le long de la frontière ; ou encore par le rachat, par des capitaux allemands, des entreprises alsaciennes qui battent de l’aile ou qui au contraire se portent bien. Si l’Alsace est mieux lotie que la plupart des régions françaises, elle fait piètre figure dès lors qu’elle se compare à ses voisines allemandes et plus encore suisses, sur lesquelles elle est pourtant de plus en plus ouverte.
"""
That Alsace is relatively poor compared to its direct neighbours is painfully obvious for anyone who visits the three regions - just compare the Vosges and the Schwarzwald for example or Freiburg and Basel with Mulhouse.
As for you EU-statistics, I can only cite Winston Churchill who said:
I gather, young man, that you wish to be a Member of Parliament. The first lesson that you must learn is, when I call for statistics about the rate of infant mortality, what I want is proof that fewer babies died when I was Prime Minister than when anyone else was Prime Minister. That is a political statistic.
Le monde diplomatique (French paper)
Alsace, exception to the rule
http://mondediplo.com/1998/05/07bihr (English) and
http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/1998/05/BIHR/10462 (French)
you will find the following passus:
While Alsace as a region is relatively prosperous compared to the rest of France, it cuts a poor figure in comparison to the German and Swiss neighbours with whom it shares increasingly open borders.
Si l’Alsace est mieux lotie que la plupart des régions françaises, elle fait piètre figure dès lors qu’elle se compare à ses voisines allemandes et plus encore suisses, sur lesquelles elle est pourtant de plus en plus ouverte.
complete passus:
""
Although Alsace is peripheral in relation to the rest of France, in the past three decades its geographical position has placed it right at the heart of the European arena. It has become increasingly integrated into the economic realities of the Rhineland. It has a ringside seat for observing the strengthening of German dominance over Europe, and for feeling its effects, good and bad. It is certainly true that this integration has brought Alsace a large part of its prosperity, but it also accounts for a fair measure of its weakness and fragility. For example, 60,000 Alsatians have to cross the German and Swiss borders every day to go to work - a figure which has grown steadily in recent years. Suddenly, these border populations are finding themselves transformed into "immigrants".
That is not all. One fifth of the land available for house-building along the border has been bought up by Swiss and Germans, and German capital has gone about buying up Alsace firms that are either doing well or about to go under. While Alsace as a region is relatively prosperous compared to the rest of France, it cuts a poor figure in comparison to the German and Swiss neighbours with whom it shares increasingly open borders.
""
and in French:
""
Région périphérique au sein de l’espace national, l’Alsace s’est vue précipitée au cours des trois dernières décennies au coeur de l’arène européenne, de plus en plus intégrée à l’espace économique rhénan, placée aux premières loges pour assister au renforcement de l’hégémonie allemande sur l’Europe et pour en subir les effets, à la fois bénéfiques et pervers. Car, si cette intégration vaut à la région une bonne partie de sa prospérité, elle lui fournit aussi l’aune de sa fragilité et ses faiblesses. Elle se traduit, par exemple, par la nécessité pour quelque 60 000 Alsaciens de traverser quotidiennement la frontière allemande ou suisse, un chiffre qui n’a cessé de grossir au fil des ans. Du coup, ces transfrontaliers deviennent, eux aussi, des sortes d’immigrés.
Cette intégration se traduit aussi par l’achat d’un cinquième des terrains à construire ou des maisons d’habitation par des Allemands ou par des Suisses le long de la frontière ; ou encore par le rachat, par des capitaux allemands, des entreprises alsaciennes qui battent de l’aile ou qui au contraire se portent bien. Si l’Alsace est mieux lotie que la plupart des régions françaises, elle fait piètre figure dès lors qu’elle se compare à ses voisines allemandes et plus encore suisses, sur lesquelles elle est pourtant de plus en plus ouverte.
"""
That Alsace is relatively poor compared to its direct neighbours is painfully obvious for anyone who visits the three regions - just compare the Vosges and the Schwarzwald for example or Freiburg and Basel with Mulhouse.
As for you EU-statistics, I can only cite Winston Churchill who said:
I gather, young man, that you wish to be a Member of Parliament. The first lesson that you must learn is, when I call for statistics about the rate of infant mortality, what I want is proof that fewer babies died when I was Prime Minister than when anyone else was Prime Minister. That is a political statistic.
I doubt that Alsace is poorer than any other region in Europe - Alsace is the second most wealthy region in France after Paris!