why are you using "Anglo-Saxon" all the time?

Hopeful   Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:16 am GMT
some of you here at this frum are talking about Anglo-Saxon countries, Anglo-Saxon people (saying that all English speaking people are Anglo-Saxon, that´s NOT true), Anglo-Saxon arrogance, Anglo-Saxon behaviour etc
You are using the term "Anglo-Saxon" completely wrong
I am not from an English speaking country, so I´m not trying to defend anyone or take one side
I will just say that some of you are using it wrong

When you are using the term "Anglo-Saxon", are you referring to some people 1000 years ago wearing bronse helmets and invading Britain?
If you´re not (just talking about today´s English-speaking population, please STOP using it!)
I don´t think many English speakers like to be called Anglo-Saxons today, sorry!
Brennus   Sat Oct 22, 2005 7:56 am GMT
All of the British people I've met seem to like to being called Anglo-Saxons but it's true the Anglo-Saxons were a minority in Britain from the very beginning. The largest numbers of Germanic invaders were the Danes and the Norman French. A considerable amount of Celtic and even pre-Celtic also seems to have survived in the British population to this day and it is being reinforced by the steady immigration of Irish and Scots into England which began in the 1830's.

The term "Anglo-Saxon" became popular in England and America during the Victorian period although Oliver Cromwell may have started the whole Anglo-Saxon thing earlier in the 17th century. He argued during the Glorious Revolution that the common people of England (whom he thought he represented) were of Anglo-Saxon lineage while the English ruling class (whom he opposed) were "Normans." The leaders of the French revolution would later use a similar nationalistic appeal in an effort to unite their movement. They argued that the common people of France were descended from Gauls and Romans while the French ruling class were Franks, a foreign group.
Travis   Sat Oct 22, 2005 8:41 am GMT
Sorry, but there were far more Anglo-Saxon invaders in Britain than Norman French invaders, as the former had enough numbers to displace the native cultures and languages to the fringes of Britain, whereas the latter numbered only in the few thousands, and eventually took on the West Germanic language of the general population of England. On the other hand, yes, there were a whole lot of Danes (and also Norwegians) who invaded what is now England and Scotland, relative to the preexisting West Germanic-speaking population there, which is why Middle English and Modern English contain a significant North Germanic adstratum despite being genetically West Germanic.
Hopeful   Sat Oct 22, 2005 9:42 am GMT
"All of the British people I've met seem to like to being called Anglo-Saxons but it's true the Anglo-Saxons were a minority in Britain from the very beginning."

Have you ever tried to call a Scot or a Welsh an Anglo-Saxon?
I don´t think they will like it
And someone at this forum are calling everyone who speaks English Anglo-Saxons (whatever culture they have)
greg   Sat Oct 22, 2005 9:46 am GMT
Il arrive que les francophones utilisent An <Anglo-Saxon> dans le sens de Fr <A(a)nglo-saxon(s)(ne)(nes)>, lequel possède, grosso modo, 2 significations :

1/ personne appartenant à la tribu germanique ayant envahi la Grande-Bretagne celtique

2/ personnne de langue maternelle anglaise qui vit dans une société où l'anglais est langue officielle ou dominante — par extension : qualifie les choses ou concepts se rapportant à cette société (« comptabilité anglo-saxonne », « droit anglo-saxon », « littérature anglo-saxonne » etc).
Hopeful   Sat Oct 22, 2005 10:26 am GMT
But I don´t like the French usage (sorry)
I learn French and I hve nothing against French people or language (I have been in France many times, have some family living there), but I must say that it´s a wrong way to use the "term Anglo-Saxon"
Shall I start calling you French people "Romans" or "Franks"?
Sander   Sat Oct 22, 2005 11:50 am GMT
Why would you call them Franks? :-)
NON Anglo Saxon Damian   Sat Oct 22, 2005 12:04 pm GMT
**Have you ever tried to call a Scot or a Welsh an Anglo-Saxon?**

Don't even go there! Aarggggghhhh!!!


erm....it's never "a Welsh"! A Scot, yes, that's fine...but "a Welsh" is wrong...sorry! A Welshman or a Welshwoman is fine....but...have you ever tried to call a Welshman a Welsh? :-)
Travis   Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:54 pm GMT
>>"All of the British people I've met seem to like to being called Anglo-Saxons but it's true the Anglo-Saxons were a minority in Britain from the very beginning."

Have you ever tried to call a Scot or a Welsh an Anglo-Saxon?
I don´t think they will like it
And someone at this forum are calling everyone who speaks English Anglo-Saxons (whatever culture they have)<<

One important note here though is that the Scots language, and not just Scottish English, *is* descended from Old English, due to there being Anglo-Saxon settlement in what is present-day Scotland. However, Scots has far more North Germanic influence than "standard" forms of English, due to there being much settlement of Old Norse-speakers in what is the present-day lowlands of Scotland, moreso than in more southerly areas of England.
greg   Sat Oct 22, 2005 8:04 pm GMT
Hopeful : pourquoi adopter une attitude prescriptive ? L'acception du terme Fr <A(a)nglo-saxon(s)(ne)(nes)> n'est pas fausse même si elle ne te plaît pas ou si tu ne la comprends pas. La porosité entre Fr <A(a)nglo-saxon(s)(ne)(nes)> et An <Anglo-Saxon> — dans la bouche ou sous la plume d'un francophone — est naturelle. Il vaut mieux comprendre d'où elle procède avant de se prononcer sur sa validité qui , de toute façon, ne dépend ni de toi ni de moi : elle est l'affaire de tous ceux qui emploient ce terme.
Brennus   Sat Oct 22, 2005 10:09 pm GMT
Hopeful,

No. I've never tried to call a Scot or a Welshman an Anglo-Saxon. However, even here, geography plays a major role. I don't think that most Americans of Scottish, Welsh or Cornish heritage would care if you referred to them "Anglo-Saxons" since there never have been any Celtic nationalist movements in the United States like Great Britain. Even among Irish-Americans, sensitivity over the words "Anglo-American" and "Anglo-Saxon" seem to be diminishing as they become more assimilated.

Likewise, you will find that Breton nationalism is strong in Brittany, but not among the many Quebeckers of Breton French extraction who are more likely to identify themselves as "Francophone" or "Français."

Finally, Greg is right that "Anglo-Saxon" has two different connotations - the ancient Germanic tribe- and anyone in an English speaking country whose native language is English.
Ron   Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:04 pm GMT
The Angles in the form of Northumbrians held control of the south East
Scotland between 600 and around 1000 approx. The place names are all old English. Alongwith the Scots(Irish) British(Welsh) and norse as well as the poor Picts make up the stock of the Scottish nation. Also include French(Norman) etc So the Scots were an amalgum of Anglo-Saxon and Celt. lowland Scots spoke a derivative of old English originally called Inglis but better known as Scots. Oh what a complicated little world we live in!
bernard   Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:46 am GMT
"Anglo-saxon", tel qu'il est utilisé dans le language moderne ne fait pas référence au peuple qui a envahi La Grande Bretagne il y a 1500ans mais aux peuples modernes qui ont un héritage culturel lié à la Grande Bretagne - et donc à la langue Anglaise : Les pays Anglo-saxons sont l'UK, Les USA, l'Australie, Le Nouvelle Zélande, Le Canada Anglophone, etc.
Si le terme "Anglo-saxon" gène ceux qui y voient uniquement un conotation ethnico-raciale, on peut utiliser "Anglophone". Cependant, dans le terme "Anglophone" il n'y a que l'Héritage linguistique de l'Anglais, et pas vraiment d'autres caractéristiques culturelles - Et est donc un concept plus large que Anglo-saxon. (Ex: l'Australie est clairement un pays Anglo-saxon, tandis que le Nigéria est un pays Anglophone dont l'héritage anglo-saxon est plus limité)

On pourrait faire le mêm genre de remarques à propos du concept de "Arabe" - Qui dans l'usage moderne désigne tous les peuples de langue et de culture Arabophone, même s'il représentent pour la plupart des peuples "arabisés" n'ayant pas ou peu de liens avec la pénisule Arabique.
bernard   Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:47 am GMT
n'ayant pas ou peu de liens avec la pénisule Arabique =
n'ayant pas ou peu de liens "génétiques"/"ethniques" avec la pénisule Arabique.
Adam   Mon Nov 07, 2005 6:00 pm GMT
"Have you ever tried to call a Scot or a Welsh an Anglo-Saxon? "

Even though most of them ARE Anglo-Saxon.