Vosotros

I think that otros in Vosotros and Nostros is redundant. It should be: nos, vos.

Nosotros = we others
Vosotros = you others literaly

<< I think that otros in Vosotros and Nostros is redundant. It should be: nos, vos. >>

It actually used to be that way. The Latin pronouns were nos and vos, and that's the way they were in Spanish until a few centuries ago. But "vos" had become an honorific singular pronoun as well as being used for the plural (as is still the case with vous in French), so "vosotros" developed in pretty much exactly the same fashion that "you guys" and "you all" developed in English. I don't know why "nosotros" formed, though. Maybe it was by analogy with "vosotros", or to better distinguish it from the object pronoun "nos", or maybe both...

- Kef

Because nos is the majestic plural of Yo. It's the same thing as vos but applied to the first person:

Yo, nos
Tú, vos.

But majestic plural is no longer used in Spanish, so it is useless to distinguish nos and vos from nosotros and vosotros.

But then would "Nos damos" mean "We give" or "We give to ourselves"? So it's not completely useless. That ambiguity doesn't exist with vosotros, though, since its object pronoun is "os". I doubt Spaniards find it to be a big enough problem that they're willing to change it back, though. ;)

nos damos un beso
os doy un punetazo
nos cuenta un relato muy divertido
os regalo un ramo de florecillas

Furrykef
What does your nick mean? It sounds Arabic

Furrykef, I refer to Nos as a subject personal pronoun. "Nos dieron la mano" . Here Nos act as an indirect object.

<< What does your nick mean? It sounds Arabic >>

"furry" refers to my affinity of cartoon animals; "Kef" is my name. So I just stuck 'em together.

<< Furrykef, I refer to Nos as a subject personal pronoun. >>

I know that. The point is that if you use it as a subject pronoun, then it's indistinguishable from the object pronoun. Thus, "nosotros" is not a completely useless form in modern Spanish, because "nos damos" unambiguously means "We give to ourselves"; it would be ambiguous if "nos" could be used as a subject as well. That ambiguity might not be a big problem, but it would still exist.

- Kef

^ Yes, kef summed it up. It is a lot more clear to use nos and nosotros. You need do differenciate as with the other subjects/pronouns.

That wouldn't be a problem if Spanish didn't leave out subject pronouns.

In French:

Nous nous donnons. = We give to ourselves.

Nous donnons. = We give.

In Spanish it could be:

Nos nos damos.

Nos damos.

But by requiring subject pronouns, you lose the extra emphasis you could gain by using one where one isn't required. You can't change "nosotros" to "nos" without losing something.

I don't think that there should be that much ambiguity. If nos was introduced in nos damos it would be the object pronoun because if it was the subject pronoun it would had been probably dropped.

Nos damos un beso
(Nos) damos un regalo.

Che discussioni peregrine!