Do English teachers in England speak RP? Should they?

Guest57   Sun Oct 30, 2005 3:37 am GMT
Are English teachers in the UK (at least in England) required or encouraged to speak RP? I know this is (or was) the case at the 'public' schools but is this the case in the state schools also?

Don't get me wrong. An English teacher's job is not to try to undo all the damage that English parents have done at home with their children by not speaking Standard English to them. (One English couple I met while I was on holiday even told me that by the time children get to school they have already modelled their speech after their parents' and in most cases are not likely to change it.)

Also, an English teachers job is primarily to teach grammar, vocabulary, and literature. However, don't children learn phonics while in primary school? Sometimes I hear Cockney and I ask myself "Did this person's primary school English teacher not explain how to pronounce words like "holiday", "Saturday", "name", and "price"? (Not "olidie", "Sa?urdie", "nime", and "proice"? Was the correct pronunciation of the letter 'a' (the very first letter in the alphabet) somehow skipped??? Did this person not learn to distinguish between 'a', 'i', and 'oi', etc...???

Although an English teacher's job is primarily to teach grammar, spelling, punctuation, vocabulary, and analise great books, pronunciation should not be overlooked. English teachers should be a model of standard speech. Correct pronunciation should be emphasized not at the expense of all the other aspects of English I mentioned above. Instead, it should complement them. Students should learn to write correctly and to speak correctly (both grammatically, lexically and phonetically). Sometimes a good accent is required in formal or professional situations. Students need not be forced to adopt RP, but shouldn't they at least be EXPOSED to it? Shouldn't they at least be given a chance to learn it and use it, IF they so choose? Or should only 'public' school students be given such a chance?

What do YOU think?
Qu'est-ce que vous en pensez?
Que piensa Usted?
Cosa pensa Lei?
Was denkt Sie?
Ti nomizete eseis?
Guest   Sun Oct 30, 2005 4:15 am GMT
>>Are English teachers in the UK (at least in England) required or encouraged to speak RP? I know this is (or was) the case at the 'public' schools but is this the case in the state schools also?<<

Wouldn't know, never having been in the UK in the first place.

>>Don't get me wrong. An English teacher's job is not to try to undo all the damage that English parents have done at home with their children by not speaking Standard English to them. (One English couple I met while I was on holiday even told me that by the time children get to school they have already modelled their speech after their parents' and in most cases are not likely to change it.)<<

"Damage"? Why do you call such "damage" per se? Why is to speak the native dialect in an area, rather than some artificial formal "standard" something that should be considered as "damage"?

>>Also, an English teachers job is primarily to teach grammar, vocabulary, and literature. However, don't children learn phonics while in primary school? Sometimes I hear Cockney and I ask myself "Did this person's primary school English teacher not explain how to pronounce words like "holiday", "Saturday", "name", and "price"? (Not "olidie", "Sa?urdie", "nime", and "proice"? Was the correct pronunciation of the letter 'a' (the very first letter in the alphabet) somehow skipped??? Did this person not learn to distinguish between 'a', 'i', and 'oi', etc...???<<

Of course, this begs the question of why there is any need at all to teach individuals the language that they already speak natively in school in the first place. At least here in the US, the spoken language is practically not even mentioned in school, much the less *taught*, and yet I have not seen any problems result from such. (Actually, I would say that such is a good thing, as there really is not nearly the level of angsting here about "speaking correctly" and such similar bullshit as there is in the UK today.) If anything, the only purpose of school at all in this context is to teach the *written* language, which issues like this have no pertinance to in the first place.

>>Although an English teacher's job is primarily to teach grammar, spelling, punctuation, vocabulary, and analise great books, pronunciation should not be overlooked. English teachers should be a model of standard speech.<<

Very funny. In the UK itself, RP has lost the social prestige it used to have, today being often viewed more as stilted and snobbish more than anything else, and yet you try to promote it as some kind of ideal "standard", despite the fact that RP speakers are busy fleeing to Estuary English or at least Estuary-izing their RP as we speak. To claim that people "should" speak RP is practically anachronistic today.

>>Correct pronunciation should be emphasized not at the expense of all the other aspects of English I mentioned above. Instead, it should complement them. Students should learn to write correctly and to speak correctly (both grammatically, lexically and phonetically). Sometimes a good accent is required in formal or professional situations.<<

Hmm... at least here, most people speak what they learn at home and amongst others their age where they live, and they have no problems with respect to such, probably the only exception being how AAVE and Southern American English are (unfortunately) stigmatized here. Besides those two cases, I have seen no need for people, at least here, to go and learn some kind of "good accent", as you call such. So why should such *really* matter in the UK (and, even though it may have in the past, considering the rise of Estuary, I somehow suspect it does not matter nearly as much today in realiy)?

>>Students need not be forced to adopt RP, but shouldn't they at least be EXPOSED to it? Shouldn't they at least be given a chance to learn it and use it, IF they so choose? Or should only 'public' school students be given such a chance?<<

The problem is that if you try to push forward some kind of view of RP as being "correct" in schools, you will only reinforce the link of dialect to social class which has existed in the UK, as if you push it as being "correct", things other than it will naturally be viewed by others as "incorrect". One reason why much of the dialects here in the US are not viewed in any such light is because the spoken language is not even taken into account in the first place in schools, as schools here primarily teach the literary language alone. And the dialects here which are stigmatized are stigmatized less due to any notions of "correctness" than what they are associated with socially *outside* of anything pertaining to spoken language itself.
Travis   Sun Oct 30, 2005 4:17 am GMT
The above "Guest" is me, just for the record.
Guest57   Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:12 am GMT
I am a speaker from a foreign country who has attended an international school. I only know how to speak two types of English: Gen Am and RP (the only two accents used at the school). Also, GAE is used by the vast majority of actors on American films and movies. RP is used by some BBC announcers and by certain British actors, some of whom appear on American movies. Not having lived in the UK, I have not really been exposed to any of the local accents. Also, most people today in the States and Canada speak GAE.

I can speak flawless GAE, which is what I use when I visit the US. However, I've also been told I speak flawless (or nearly flawless RP), albeit not necessarily in those words, by many English people I've met while in the UK or travelling abroad.

I feel more comfortable using GAE while in the US. However, I feel more comfortable using "British English" while in the UK. However, RP is the only British accent I am proficient in. I couldn't imitate Cockney even if I tried and I'm not even sure I even know what Estuary English sounds like. I was once waiting on line (in queue) to get into a popular London night club and one of the people I spoke to while waiting said 'Where are you from? you have a posh accent'. I never really thought of my accent as posh nor was I trying to be what some peeople call 'uppity'. I was merely trying to speak "standard, non-regional" English English. Do I have to adopt Estuary English? How can I do so being that I do not live in the UK but rather in a non-English speaking country and thus am not exposed to it? I can watch the BBC endlessly but they speak RP for the most part. Also, most of the British actors (like Alec Guiness) on those epic movies like Star Wars use RP. Monty Python movies make use of everything from the broadest Cockney to upper-RP but I cannot learn Cockney by merely trying to imitate a few phrases uttered in a movie. I'd have to to study its vowel system as described in books, I'd have to listen to cassetttes, etc.. However, British ESL audio programmes use RP.
Should I not just "stick with" RP? If people are to judge me based on my accent without getting to know me then I would think that they are not really worth having as friends, anyway. My intention is not to sound posh, just "correct". However, RP is the only English accent I know. I guess I could use GAE while in England but I really hesitate to do so because I know all the negative stereotypes which many people (in some cases correctly, in others incorrectly) attach to Americans. Although I don't want any negative stereotypes associated with RP attached to me either, I would choose RP as the lesser of the two "evils". What else am I to do? Speak with a southern European accent??? (That's where I'm from).

Also, getting back to my original question, do English teachers in state schools in the UK use estuary English then???
Uriel   Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:37 am GMT
You know, no matter what accent you have (or use), somebody somewhere is going to have an opinion about it, so you can't really avoid being judged. However, if I were you, I would probably stick to speaking RP in the UK, rather than trying to adopt a regional accent from a region you aren't really from, since those regional accents seem to have a host of complicated social implications.

I'm not British, but I suppose that adopting a regional UK accent would be a lot like having you learn a southern or New England accent here, instead of GAE -- it would just be a little weird, you know? Those accents don't really "belong" on people who aren't actually southerners or New Englanders.
Rick Johnson   Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:16 am GMT
"Are English teachers in the UK (at least in England) required or encouraged to speak RP? I know this is (or was) the case at the 'public' schools but is this the case in the state schools also?"

No, in a word- English teachers just teach standard witten English and spelling. Some teachers- like in any country- will try to correct sloppy speech and disapprove of slang. I remember when I was at primary school and one kid, while talking about his weekend to the class, said "we saw some lakes and there was some real bigguns" at which point the teacher said "there were some really big ones".

Whether you are Australia, the UK or the US, the language used in business is very much the same and different from that only a few feet away on the street.

The problem with "RP" is that, unlike, "GA" it does not represent the middle ground and is filled with unusual and confusing pronunciations like saying "really" so it sounds more like "rarely".

I don't think it matters too much how you sound as long as people can understand what you are saying. The worst thing a non-native English speaker can do is try to copy a particular accent.
Damian in Edinburgh   Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:53 am GMT
I'm glad this thread refers specifically to England as the accent thing does not apply to Scotland anything like as much as it does down south. It's just not so much of an issue here.

I would think that it depends whereabouts in England you are located, the type of area and the proportion of ethnic groups in the local population in a country which is becoming increasingly multi cultural. In some inner city areas the range of accents is pretty large, and I reckon this must apply for a fair number of the teachers as not all of them would be native born.

No way do I think that all teachers should adopt RP as such. It really would be unnatural in a way. It is the teachers' responsibility, though, to instil the proper use and expression of standard English in their pupils/students, even if it seems like swimming against the tide bearing in mind that sloppy speech often rules outside the classroom, more so in some areas than others.

As Rick says, teachers "try" to correct badly spoken English without wielding a stick (an action that would instantly lead to legal proceedings as kids know their full "rights"). The accent in which this is done does not matter in my opinion. Maybe you could say it's possible to speak RP with a local accent but that would probably be confusing correct standard spoken English with strong local accents and a lapse into colloquialisms.

Unadulterated RP really is a minority accent in England in most people under the age of 30 at least....it bears the stigma of "speaking posh" and it's been said before in here that RP in England is being "dumbed down" by the tentacles of Estuary seeping in from all sides.

So my answers to the questions raised in the thread title are:

No....not all that many do
No

I assume we are speaking about public (State) sector schools here.

I daresay that a few teachers in the private sector (which include public schools in England and Wales...but NOT Scotland..... just to confuse the whole issue totally!) may have cut glass accents that Brian Sewell would feel at home with.

The United Kingdom proobably looks like one huge enigma to people from outside these borders......as it does to many of us.
Guest57   Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:06 pm GMT
Actually, Uriel's advice, which was brief, well-written, and to the point makes perfect sense. I'll just simply stick with GAE when visiting the United States (the most 'neutral' sounding English). In addition, I will continue to use RP when visiting the UK. If I should happen to sound 'posh' to the younger crowd or to certain memebers of the older crowd, than so be it. RP is a linguistic accomplishment that has taken me a tremendous amount of time, effort and perseverance to achieve and I'm not about to throw it into the rubbish bin and attempt to acquire this new "Estuary" thing just to please certain people.

Where would I even find Estuary speakers in my country? Where would I find British movies in which only Estuary is used? There are no audio materials in Estuary as far as I know (most instructional British audio materials for foreign speakers are in RP). Besides, I see nothing wrong with RP. I even like the way certain British actors (like Penelope Keith and Anthony Hopkins - to name just two) sound. When visiting working-class neighbourhoods in and around London I'll just have to walk around, look at my map often, and talk as little as possible. People in stores, restaurants, and pubs might look at me askance when I say 'Excuse me sir, by any chance did I leave my umbrella in here?' but that is just something I'll have to bear. (I make use of intrusive 'r' between 'umbrella' and 'in' and it is somewhat fricative also. I also say 'chance' with a very broad 'a' and I have a very 'posh' wasy of pronouncing the words 'sir' and 'here' which I cannot describe in writing.)

Trying to acquire some regional British accent in order to sound less 'posh' is likely to yield mixed and very uncertain results and may even get me into trouble. No, I think I'll just stick with RP and simply accept the social implications that may come with it. I could do far worse.
Damian in EH12   Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:46 pm GMT
No need to do the "by any chance" bit! You just may get a quizzical look if you use phrases that seem to belong to the days of Bertie Wooster. Simply say: "Excuse me...did I leave my umbrella here?" By all means use your best RP but leave out the unnecessary embellishments, even down Knightsbridge way....be yourself and if you wish to use RP in Hackney or Dudley or Cambuslang....or where ever ....then go ahead. You won't be clapped in irons and sent to the Tower.......the English don't go in for that any more.
Rick Johnson   Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:38 pm GMT
<<You won't be clapped in irons>>...........unless you happen to wander into certain establishments in Soho!
Damian   Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:10 pm GMT
Oh aye...those are voluntary though......usually.
eito(jpn)   Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:57 pm GMT
To Guest57:

>>Was denkt Sie?<<

"Was meinen Sie?" is corect.
Sander   Mon Oct 31, 2005 10:05 pm GMT
Eito (jpn)

=>To Guest57:

>>Was denkt Sie?<<

"Was meinen Sie?" is corect. <=

Hmm, 'Was meinen Sie' would be 'what do you mean' (polite form)

However, 'Was denkt Sie' wrong anyway. It should either be 'Was denkst du' or 'Was denken Sie'. ;-)
Sander   Mon Oct 31, 2005 10:10 pm GMT
However, 'Was denkt Sie' IS wrong anyway.
Guest57   Tue Nov 01, 2005 6:03 am GMT
You said << By all means use your best RP but leave out the unnecessary embellishments.>>

Although you have a point, I should let you know that I sometimes use embellishments simply to be more polite. Using the phrase "by any chance..." is simply my way of not just barging in and demanding that my umbrella be handed over on the spot. In fact, I use it in the US also and I've heard countless people using this phrase to begin a question on both sides of the Atlantic.

Nevertheless, your point is well taken.

Also, when I said 'fricative r', I really meant 'tapped r'. Sorry for the mistake.