This kind of mistakes

saya   Sunday, October 31, 2004, 22:37 GMT

I agree with you. However, I found "these kind of plural nouns" in a work by an obscure writer of your country.

"These kind of knaves I know, which in this plainness harbour more craft and more corrupter ends than twenty silly ducking observants that stretch their duties nicely." (William Shakespeare, "King Lear", Act II, Scene ii, 1605)

Mi5 Mick   Monday, November 01, 2004, 00:44 GMT
If "mistake" could be made to sound uncountable or abstract then "These kinds of mistake" would sound OK to me. For that reason, "these kinds of (plural noun)" typically rings truer.
Sanja   Monday, November 01, 2004, 17:10 GMT
To Achab: No, I'm not a native English speaker, but thanks for the compliment anyway (the fact that you even thought I was). :-)
Sanja   Monday, November 01, 2004, 17:13 GMT
I've seen sentences like "These kind of ....." in chat rooms and they were often written by native speakers.
mjd   Monday, November 01, 2004, 18:56 GMT
You've seen them because it's common in colloquial speech (I'm sure I say it too). Chat rooms reflect spoken language more than written language. It obviously goes back a long time...note the Shakespeare quote above.
Ali   Monday, November 01, 2004, 20:57 GMT
Or, mjd, 'mistakes of these kinds'?
Ali   Monday, November 01, 2004, 21:08 GMT
Sorry, mjd, the answer above was to your comment on the previous page (I hadn't seen 'next page' at the bottom of the screen!).

Saya, I'm afraid I don't think we can look to Shakespeare for hints on current accepted usage. For example, can you imagine any educated person saying 'more corrupter' these days and getting away with it?

The same goes for chat rooms, too. As mjd says, chat rooms reflect spoken rather than written language. They are also peopled by a wide variety of participants, not all of whom are highly literate. As a student of English, I expect that your ultimate goal is to use English in a similar way to an educated native speaker? If so, I would certainly note interesting problems, as you are doing, but I wouldn't try to use everything I read in such a situation.
saya   Monday, November 01, 2004, 21:58 GMT
Thank you for your kind advice. I know grammar books says that "these kind of Xs" is incorrect and we have to say "these kinds of Xs". But it is also true many native speakers say "these kind of Xs" in the colloquial speech. What the grammar says is that "these" modifies not "Xs" but "kinds". However my guess is some native speakers take the phrase "kind of" per se as an adjective and they feel they are saying "these <kind-of> Xs".


Sanja   Tuesday, November 02, 2004, 15:54 GMT
Once I said "this kind of ....." in a chat room and a native English speaker corrected me and said "these kind of .......". LOL :)
Easterner   Tuesday, November 02, 2004, 17:33 GMT
>>As mjd says, chat rooms reflect spoken rather than written language. They are also peopled by a wide variety of participants, not all of whom are highly literate.<<

The five most common examples of chatroom and forum illiteracy:

1/ "it's" for "its"
2/ "their" for "they're" (or vice versa)
3/ "who's" for "whose"
4/ "these" for "this" (or vice versa)
5/ "wierd" for "weird"
etc., etc., etc.
Sanja   Wednesday, November 03, 2004, 16:36 GMT
The most common spelling and grammar mistakes in English, made by native speakers (and not only in chatrooms and forums, because even educated people make them) are:

1.) "definately" for "definitely"
2.) "seperate" for "separate"
3.) "grammer" for "grammar"
4.) "suprise" for "surprise"
5.) confusing "it's/its", "to/too", "there/their/they're", "who's/whose",
"then/than", "you're/your"
6.) misuse of apostrophes
Sanja   Wednesday, November 03, 2004, 16:37 GMT
Oh, yes, and "wierd" for "weird" and a lot of other spelling mistakes.
Paulski   Wednesday, November 03, 2004, 18:46 GMT
I often see that people have written 'your' (possessive) when they mean 'you're' (you are).

Often in this chat room.

There's a vey slight difference in pronunciation but you hardly ever hear it in normal conversation.
Sanja   Thursday, November 04, 2004, 16:20 GMT
I just remembered a few more common spelling mistakes made by native speakers: "embarass" for "embarrass" (that's the most common, even though I've seen a lot of worse versions....LOL), "dissapear" for "disappear", "dissapoint" for "disappoint", "occassion" for "occasion"...
I also see "tommorow" for "tomorrow" pretty often. (*shocked*)
Boy   Thursday, November 04, 2004, 16:29 GMT
"Them" for "those".