Barthelona Madrith Andaluthia Tharagotha

How do you wanna call people with both Spanish and Indian ancestry? Hybrids? That would be even more offensive!!!

Yes, words change, and so do their senses and their connotation. But we should end with racisms in ourselves. These words wouldn't be strong if people weren't racist.

Latin Americans apparently dislike hearing Castillan Spanish. Is that not racist?

Steve, I think it's more classist than racist, but it's all to the same tune. All spring from an -ism that means discrimination in some form.

Dear Xatufan, Brennus, Steve and all the others.
Going back to the original topic I have done some research concerning the interdental in the Spanish-speaking world. According to prestigious dialectological studies the "ceceo" (pronouncing all "s" and "c" as an interdental is not only common in Western Andalusia, in Spain, but also in different areas in Puerto Rico, Colombia, rural areas of Argentina, frequent in El Salvador and Honduras and very common amongst the popular classes of Nicaragua and quite so in the Venezuelan coast.
In the second passage, from different authors, it repeats that "ceceo" in characteristic of parts of Andalusia and Hispanic America. I repeat that would be considered a "lisp" in Spain right now since we do make a s/c difference. The fact is quite a big area in Central and South America seem to prounounce with a "th" interdental all the time.
The fact is anybody speaking the Spanish language knows of the strong sense of linguistic unity there is amongst Spanish-language speakers. A biased opinion would have Spanish-language immigrants to the US speak a "bastard variety" "not true Spanish" and should, therefore, rather forget it as soon as possible. I've read quite a few misleading opinions from the US in that sense, and from alleged authorities! From a technical linguistic point of view that is absolutely false, no matter how many anglicisms the second generation includes due to a language in contact with a more "prestigious variety" and previous to language shift. The first generation always speak beautiful Spanish and we are not speaking of language registers right here.
The more you're educated and native in any given language, the more you realise how unitary that language is below, in all classes and at all levels. It doesn't disturb you at all to find something new, which doesn't happen frequently at all. Almost all that is "over there" was "over here" before. Most of the new that was found "over there" was first introduced to the rest of Europe and the world "over here" (that could go for an explanation of Englishes in North America, Oceania, Africa and Europe as well.)
Lately, I'm really surprised with ANTIMOON. I had the feeling I was here to practice my English. If I'm here to discuss serious linguistics I'd rather move on the the LINGUIST in 2005. I'm willing to do so (I'm sure my CV would be accepted but that would oblige me to some very heavy homework right now since I don't take science for granted). I also encourage Mr. Brennus to do so (although I adventure future amazed linguists asking themselves a few questions).


1)Pero la objeción carece de fundamento aun dando a «ceceo» el mismo sentido que los objetantes, pues aunque menos extendia que en la Andalucía Occidental, la sibilante ciceada se ha reconocido en diversos puntos de Puerto Rico y Colombia, así como en zonas rurales de la Argentina; es frecuente en El Salvador y Honduras, muy común entre las clases populares de Nicaragua y bastante en las costas de Venezuela.
Ceceo
2)Se conoce con el nombre de ‘ceceo’ la sustitución de la fricativa linguoalveolar sorda [s] (la variante llamada ‘s’ predorsal) por la fricativa linguo interdental sorda [θ]. El ‘ceceo’ es característico de algunas partes de Andalucía y de Hispanoamérica, y también puede ser un defecto de pronunciación, llamado en inglés lisp, frecuente en el habla infantil. Los que emplean el ‘ceceo’ neutralizan la oposición entre [θ] y [s] existente en palabras tales como cazar y casar.”
[Alcaraz Varó, Enrique / Martínez Linares, María Antonia: Diccionario de lingüística moderna. Barcelona: Editorial Ariel, 1997, S. 109

OK

Xatufan said: >>"Mestizo" is the correct way to call most of Latin Americans, including me. Of course, you SHOULD NEVER use it as a vocative, as it would be offensive, but this is because most of the mestizos want to hide their indigenous ancestry.<<

This doesn't seem to be the only reason, I think everybody would find it offensive if somebody addressed them by referring to the colour of their skin, in my case as "hey, white man" by an Asian, African, or indeed, a Mestizo. Same goes for using somebody's nationality as a term of address.

Of course, Easterner, I agree. But what if a white man calls you "hey, white man"? This is exactly what happens in Latin America.

It even happens in my classroom: I have a friend who has a Quechuan surname, and in our English class, when he answers wrongly, other classmates (obviously Mestizos like my friend) tell the teacher: "He can only speak Quechua!". This is the reality of this forgotten section of the world!

Dear Jordi,

I have heard some Argentines and Uruguayans talk with what you could call a lisp but it's a different kind of lisp envoving the absence or near absence of the consonant s as in escuela, (school) vuestra respuesta (your answer) and las estrellas (the stars) pronounced like la eh:kway:luh, vway:truh ray:pway:tuh and lah eh:trezhuh. It seems to be an upper class thing. However, I'm not discounting the research you have done.

Dear Brennus,
I would appreciate, as a linguist, that you made the difference between what we call "aspirations" and "interdental sounds". We, the Catalan and Spanish linguists, know very well the difference.
Aspirations, in all the Spanish-speaking world, (pueh:to for puesto) are precisely the contrary to what you assume. It is a "similar" phenomenon to what you will hear in London and Estuary English when they say "le:er" for "letter" in what has been termed as a “glottal stop”. They are considered colloquial or "vulgar" in the Latin sense of the word meaning "popular" ,whilst educated speakers will avoid such aspirations (or the “glottal stops” in English) as much as they can. I don't imagine the Queen saying "le:er" although some of her grand-sons have been reported to do so occasionally.
These aspirations are very common in southern Spanish and it is, therefore, absolutely within reason they travelled to Spanish-speaking America. Younger generations, in Spain, also seem to extend their usage. As you can see I always try to be as objective as I can.
The fact that I gave you part of the bibliography, in Spanish of course, with some of the most prestigious Spanish linguists, although I forgot to mention that one of them was my professor in my old university days, makes your remark "I'm not discounting the research you have done
"pedantic”, to say the least. Come on mate! as we say in Australia. You only have to browse a few minutes, in Spanish of course, in the Internet. Or perhaps taking a ticket to the Venezuelan coast will reassure you more? You are perhaps like St. Thomas who couldn’t believed what he didn’t touch.
I'm nobody to give you counselling. Although I'm what you would call a native or near-native English speaker (according to English native speakers, of course, and not myself, having spoken the language since I was a very young child) I will rarely say anything in threads concerning English phonology. There is one going on right now in ANTIMOON assuming minimal pairs are pronounced the same in non-rhotic accents. I'm somewhat amazed, as a General Australian speaker, that nobody from the UK or Australia-New Zealand has yet told about differences that are sensible to the ear between cot/caught, for example. I will not bother and I will wait for somebody else to do it for me.
It's not my "terrain". Do you understand what I mean? Although I majored in English Translation and Interpretation after four full courses.
Since you seem to be an ambitious man, I would stick to my favourite linguistic group before giving misleading opinions to young students who are trying to improve their English. Regarding your curiosity for all the world languages, I assure you it's a hobby we both share but I do make a difference between “hobbies” and science. I know lots of trivia about world languages and I don’t mind sharing them, with you and the rest, but I’d never go beyond.
I wish you a Happy New Year to you, your family and all your friends. Noblesse oblige.

Jordi,

Thanks for the New Year's greeting. I'm not a professional linguist; pretty much just a hobbyist. However, I have done extensive reading in the subject.

Living in the Western Hemisphere I have probably met and heard more speakers of Spanish than any other foreign language. In addition, I have also known over the years speakers of Canadian French (once fairly common in the Seattle where I live), Afrikaans, Farsi, Cantonese, Japanese, German and Romanian. When I was a boy, you could still here Duwamish being spoken on the streets of Seattle, now the language is all but extinct.

I don't mean to sound like I'm bragging. I'm not. I just wanted to tell you something about my background. Seattle is becoming an international city, however, just like neighboring Vancouver B.C. and opportunities to listen to other languages are ever increasing. In the end, I think English will predominate though as these speakers become assimilated.

I wish you a Happy New Year also and best wishes in your language career. Talk to you later.

--- Brennus

Dear Brennus,
I apologise if I've been too vehement but now that things are clear I will make sure I moderate myself as far as you're concerned. Although I do have formal training as a linguist, and I'm very much an expert on Catalan dialects and the neighbouring languages, I now have a career in the Tourism and Travel Industry at executive level. It's all about having two kids and a wife (diners fan bé, diners fan mal said the old Medieval Catalan poet Fran Anselm Turmeda: money does good, money does wrong) although I'm lucky I have a bit of time for my life passions. Right now I have 10 days holidays for Christmas and that is why my messages to ANTIMOON are so long. I chose this forum at random quite a few months ago and I'm glad I did because there is a mostly young international audience and native speakers of English from all the English-speaking world. The older few bring another point of view and I feel that breaking the generation gap is quite rewarding.
I still spend my spare time in my linguistic studies and essays and I had realised that you had a vast knowledge and love of world languages although there were lagoons here and there.
Assimilation to the majority language in a area is only too human since human beings living together only need one code. It is a different thing when a language colonises or tries de colonise the area of a previously widely spoken historical language. I'm totally against that and I also think that the loss of Duwamish has been a loss for all mankind. I'm for bio-diversity and linguistic diversity as well.
Could you please tell us more about Duwamish although I could look it up myself in the Ethnologue. I'm sure some antimooners will also be interested. First hand information is always especially exciting.

Jordi-Brennus. I've really been enjoying the conversation between the two of you.

I was very interested to read that Brennus was from Seattle and that he heard Duwamish in use when he was growing up.

I grew up in Prince Rupert, British Columbia (a bit further up the coast from you) and I grew up around people who spoke a variety of aboriginal languages (Tsimshian, Haida, Nisga'a, a bit of Tlingit) and I clearly remember the government making efforts to discourage people from using them.

(I particularly remember a poster on the wall in one of my early grade school classrooms that talked about how B.C. was stronger when we all spoke English)

But in the 1970s, things changed and the government started instituting language programs and giving education money to encourage native peoples to hold on to their languages. Now, when I go back for a visit, I see businesses and cultural centres with signs in English and the aboriginal tongues.

Now I live in an ethnic area of Toronto and I see business signs written in a dozen or more languages every day... and it doesn't bother me in the least.

Did your State government change its policy to do anything to preserve Duwamish and other native languages? HOw would it compare to what they did in B.C.?

(Oh, yes... I should have mentioned that governments and church groups also set up residential schools, which took aboriginal children away from their families and put them into an enforced English language environment. That ruined a lot of people's lives and Canada is still trying to sort out the messes caused by that system).

Dear Harvey,
The very same thing happened for a very long time, until as late as 1970, with mixed race aboriginal children in Australia that were taken away from their families to aculture them in "anglo" institutions and families where they had the worst lot. I remember seeing a great film about that here in Catalonia although I don't remember the title right now. The Catalan Television Network has a dual system and foreign films can be seen dubbed in Catalan or you can switch to the original version. The Spanish National Network never does this. I saw that film in the original English version. I grew up in Australia in the 60s and 70s and I felt very much at home with the English language I heard. I never knew anything about this and Australia was still very much a British oriented society back in those days although things were beginning to change. I'm glad Australians and Canadians are coming back to terms with their own people and their own history.

I don't know if someone have said this before, but the b in "cabo", the d in "codo", and the g in "hogar" are approximants. Am I right, Jordi?