Barthelona Madrith Andaluthia Tharagotha

I am curious to know the history of the "th" pronunciation in Spain and the history of that sound generally. I know that it exists in the Greek theta. Where else? Did it exist in ancient Greece?

I am imprethed by the erudithion on this forum so I hope to get lotth of good anthwers and advithe.

I heard it was because a Spanish monarch had a speech impediment, and his court and the rest of Spain adjusted to it. However, it didn't catch on in the Spanish colonies of the New World.

Oops. Please disregard my last post. My boyfriend (who is Venezuelan) just told me it was a popular myth.

... or a popular miss.

LOL... bulltheye

Some linguists like the late Mario Pei believed in what Joanne said and I quote: >>I heard it was because a Spanish monarch had a speech impediment, and his court and the rest of Spain adjusted to it. However, it didn't catch on in the Spanish colonies of the New World<<. That King was Philip II.

W.D. Elcock in his book "The Romance Languages" thought that the change probably occurred during the Vulgar Latin period (late Roman Empire 300 -475 A.D.).

Nobody knows for sure. The lisping sound is certainly not found in any of the other neo-Latin languages, however, even Galician, Portuguese, Catalan and Ladino (Jewish Spanish).

Mexicans and other Latin Americans hate this sound (th) and consider it snobby-sounding just as many Americans and Canadians do when they hear a Britisher pronounce "I don't know" with a clipped sound (Ai downt now) instead of Ai dont no.

I had read somewhere that it was brought to Spain by Greek colonists and passed on to some of the Celto-Iberian languages and then on to Castillian.

Anyone know of other languages, other than Greek, that have it?

Dear Antimooners:
As an Iberian qualified linguist, I would ask you to please forget all that has been said on this page. Please have a look at the following address where it explains, including a very nice graphic, how the "interdental c" began to be pronounced in Spanish in the 16th and 17th century, therefore quite a recent phonological change in the Spanish language, that would also explain why South American Spanish keeps a more simple pronunciation as it dind't evolve according to the pronunciation of Central Castilian, the most prestigious form in Spain since that is where the Court was/is. I don't have the time to look for the references but Sephardite Spanish (also known as Ladino) keeps the original medieval Spanish pronunciation of these phonemes (spoken by the Jews who fled from Spain in 1492 and lived in different Mediterranean countries and now in Israel). http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~dvelagar/
I apologise but I have no time to translate:
Paso a paso (Step by step)
El proceso que siguieron las sibilantes en los siglos de oro fue el siguiente:
1. La primera pareja de sibilantes, africadas, pierde el momento de oclusión y pasan a ser fricativas dentoalveolares.
2. Todas las parejas pierden la distinción sonoridad, reduciéndose el sistema a tres sibilantes sordasfricativas: dentoalveolar, apicalveolar y prepalatal.
3. DEBIDO A LA PROXIMIDAD DE LOS TRES SONIDOS, LA DENTO ALVEOLAR SE ADELANTA HASTA HACERSE INTERDENTAL, la apicoalveolar pasa a ser la alveolar, y por último la prepalatal retrasa el punto de inflexión hasta el velo del paladar para hacerse velar, constituyendo así el actual sistema de sibilantes en español.

The most important passage for this question is "DUE TO THE CLOSENESS OF THE THREE SOUNDS, THE DENTO ALVEOLAR COMES FORWARD UNTIL IT BECOMES INTERDENTAL".
...de nada, y encantado de haber sido de alguna ayuda... Jordi :-)

Jordi,

The jury is still out on the origins of the Castillian lisp sound. It 's something that we just don't know for sure. However, W.D. Elcock's thesis that it could have appreared during the Vulgar Latin period is plausible and must be taken into consideration too.

Nevertheless, the bottom line is that Western Hemisphere speakers of Spanish do not like it and it is not advisable to speak Spanish to them with a Castillian lisp.

I can't understand how a change that all Spanish scholars agree to have happened in the 17th and 18th century can possibily be argued, when the phonological explanations are so easy to understand for the trained specialist. I would not like this to become your word against mine and I am fully prepare to learn from you as I proved in another thread. After all, our contributions are anonymous and I'm only here to practice my English not to prove I'm the best Romance-language linguist in the world. I can assure you I'm not but I did have some very serious college training, for quite a few years. The "lisp" sound didn't appear in Spanish in the Vulgar Latin period.
Brennus, do you expect Brits to speak English with a non-British accent just because some Americans don't like it or Americans the other way round when they're in the UK. I can assure you I have spoken Peninsular Castilian Spanish in South America, with my "lisping" sound and I have been respected and taken for a Spaniard from the start. I can assure that, amongst the educated, nobody argues about accents. If you want to learn Spanish because you expect to open to Central and South America I can assure you need not to learn the "lisping sound".
Last but not least, a lot has been published on this matter and the cultivated South American elite has always had a special mimetic behaviour regarding Spain and Castilian-Spanish. Some of them actually feel it's superior! Nonsense and I totally disagree with them and we already spoke about that at Antimoon a few months ago.

I agree with Jordi... it's the same here in Canada with the Quebecois accent and the various French accents. It's different, it sounds different, but no one really thinks one is superior to the other.

If the "French" speaker gives the impression they think Quebecers are less cultured colonials (which is rare nowadays), the accent can be interpretted as being snooty.

Does anyone know of other languages that have the interdental sound? Greek does and which others?

English in "think".

Other than English, Castillian and Greek?

Steve,
In many languages where the interdental isn't considered correct there are a few children and even some adults who will produce them. In those languages it is considered a "speech defect". In Catalan we have a word for those people, which is "sarcellós" or "farfallós". People who make interdentals are mocked in this way. Perhaps antimooners who are speakers of other languages can tell us if the sound exists in their languages.