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Why don't people like Russian?
Dwayne,
>>> Well, how long does it take to forget language without practice? <<< Depends on how good you know the language, how long you learn it, whether you completely isolated from that language or not, etc... So it is difficult to tell any specific number, but if you went through all years of school studying almost all subjects in Russian, you are not going to forget it fast if ever. The years between 7 and 12 are the best for acquiring language. Besides, there is no full isolation from the Russian language...
The theory is dry, my friend, but tree of life is evergreen.(Hoethe, Faust)
If you ever had a chance to speak with guys from Asia, working in construction here, I don't think you keep to it any longer.
>>>Like you or not, but the bad state of economic was the main cause leading to the collapse of the USSR.<<<
I can't agree that Soviet collapse was basically a result of economical condition of the country. If you remember there was a referendum with the only one question to decide. The Soviet citizens were asked if they want to save their country united or to live separately in their own republics.The majority wanted the USSR. But this decision was simply ignored and as we know, three leaders of Russia, Ukrain and Belorussia signed an agreement that terminated the country.
Later on, destroyed economical ties, inflation and total absence of new laws led to the situation, when a small group of oligarchs came to control of the whole country, and the West provided the regime with money, which momentarily revealed the Western banks accounts.
revealed the Western banks accounts>>>revealed on the Western banks accounts.
Mishka,
From conversations I had during my three trips to then-Soviet Union in 1988, 1990 and 1991, I got the impression that many people there loved the US because of its staunchly anti-communist stance. On my first trip, everyone with whom I discussed the upcoming US presidential election was amazed that I wasn't voting for Bush. (I was equally amazed that they thought he should be the president, but the whole trip was an eye-opener.)
What amazed me even more was that several people told me their favorite language was English and that they actually liked the sound of American English. I had never before heard this from anyone except Americans. Elsewhere in this forum, someone put forth the theory that our reactions to other languages have a lot to do with what we think of that country and its people. I can only assume that the people who told me they liked the sound of American English must really have loved what the nation stands for (or for what they perceived it as standing for).
Mishka, I don't know whether any of what I described applies to you.
Deborah,
I can't love America, because my heart is taken with another country.
:D
Mishka,
>>>The Seim approved of ammendments to the law on education according to which all the subjects of the 10th grade at the national minorities schools are going to be taught in the state language, with exception to national language and the subjects related to national identity and culture. <<<
So, I was right. There is nothing against the Russian language specifically. All languages that do not have the status of a state language are treated equally.
>>> Well, if the 30% of population of Latvia is Russian and they pay taxes like their fellow citizens, why shoudn't Latvia have 30% of ethnical Russian schools or 30% of the education timing for the subjects in Russian? <<<
But what if it were 10%, or 5%, or only 1%, would it make any difference here? I mean you were saying it is discrimination, right? But if it were only 1%, it would not be discrimination? Why should people who represent 30% of the population have more rights than those who are only 1%?
In fact, the situation with the Russian speaking population in Latvia is worse than in Lithuania or Estonia, mostly because its percent is larger. That provokes both sides to more agressive behavior - Russians make larger claims and Lativian nationalists feel more threatened and act also more agressive.
I think it should be a reasonable solution, but I do not really want to discuss that on this board. After all, this forum has a different subject.
>>> Constantly living in Latvia, they, however, have no Latvian citizenship. <<<
To acquire Latvian citizenship you have to go through certain bureaucratic precedures like taking tests on knowledge the Latvian language and its history, but 90% of applicants have passed at first attempt. I agree that is an unpleasant experience to have to go through it, but if you want to receive Latvian citizenship, it is certainly doable. Now more 80% of the population has Latvian citizenship and ethnical Latvian are less 57% of the total population.
>>> If you ever had a chance to speak with guys from Asia, working in construction here, I don't think you keep to it any longer. <<<
Why? Do you mean he did know but just forget now?
>>> I can't agree that Soviet collapse was basically a result of economical condition of the country. <<<
Basically, you say it had collapsed that just a few guys met? Really, you should know better than that. At that time people were very polically active and to organize a demonstration was much easier than now, but I don't remember any demonstration in support of the USSR at that time, and Yeltsin had a very high approving rating back then. Of course, it would not remain such for a long time, and a year later communists started their new campaign to revive the USSR.
>>> If you remember there was a referendum with the only one question to decide. The Soviet citizens were asked if they want to save their country united or to live separately in their own republics. <<<
It is very convenient for you not to mention the fact that 6 Republics -- Armenia, Georgia, Moldavia, and the Baltic republics -- did not participate in the referendum. Moreover, this referendum had no legal implication whatever. Accordingly to the USSR constituation any republic had right to declare its independence regardless what majority of others think.
Of course, the last straw was the communist coup in August 1991. Before that I thought the USSR would survive maybe without a few republics, but after that moment was very skeptical about its future and the time showed that I was right.
>>> Later on, destroyed economical ties, inflation and total absence of new laws led to the situation, when a small group of oligarchs came to control of the whole country <<<
Inflation was on for years before that, economical ties were destroyed by lack of reliable currency and inadequate fixed prices. Of course, there were many problems with laws but it should be address to deputies of Duma, who were involved in pity political quarrels. Should I mention that among them were a lot of communists, who set up the riot in 1993? Of course, Yeltsin's goverment did not show much competence in many areas, but you should also look at people who put their money in MMM and other hopeless entertainments. Add to that bribery and corruption, which finds its root in the soviet time.
As to oligarchs, they had more that they should be, but to say that they control the whole contry is clearly overstatement. At least, there were much more political freedom than now.
Deborah,
>>> I got the impression that many people there loved the US because of its staunchly anti-communist stance. <<<
Possible, but it is mostly in the past. Vast majority of Russians I know wished that Kerry won in the last election, and they do not sympathize to communists. And I read some statistics that this prefence is shared by population in general. Nevertheless, Putin decided to openly supported Bush in the last election.
>>> Elsewhere in this forum, someone put forth the theory that our reactions to other languages have a lot to do with what we think of that country and its people. <<<
Well, it may have a certain influence but there is another factor -- what variant of English you learned first, and who were the first people you speak in English to.
In fact, there is no rational reason to consider that one variant of English sounds much better than other.
Mishka,
Speaking about referendums, there was another one conducted in Ukraine on 1 December 1991, in which 84% of eligible voters took part and over 90% supported independence. With many other republics declared their indendance before, that was the last nail in the coffin of the USSR. A week later, Presidents of Belarus, Russia, and
Ukraine met together and officially declared the end of the USSR.
Dwayne,
>>>But what if it were 10%, or 5%, or only 1%, would it make any difference here? I mean you were saying it is discrimination, right? But if it were only 1%, it would not be discrimination? Why should people who represent 30% of the population have more rights than those who are only 1%?<<<
I would call it discrimination as well.
>>>All languages that do not have the status of a state language are treated equally.<<<
Equally bad, you mean? If you ever read or heard about European charters on the national minorities and a great number of other international human rights documents that are constantly broken in Latvia?
>>>I think it should be a reasonable solution, but I do not really want to discuss that on this board. After all, this forum has a different subject.<<<
I think it's right that we must to discuss, because the topic is : Why don't ppl like Russian?
Just read this:
http://www.sundayherald.com/48313
I give some excerps.
The Latvian language was squeezed out of public life and replaced by Russian. Many Latvians had difficulties explaining their symptoms to Russian-speaking doctors. Since independence they have moved to reverse the trend and restore their language and their rights as citizens.
They say all the “non-citizens” have the right to become Latvian citizens if they wish. All they have to do is pass a Latvian language test and an exam in Latvian history (in which they must answer “correctly” that Latvia was not liberated by the Soviet Union from the Nazis but occupied and subjected to a further 50 years of totalitarian rule).
But Tatjana Zdanoka, one of Latvia’s MEPs and the only Russian member of the European Parliament, says it’s not so simple. “Many of the non-citizens – such as my own mother – are elderly people who can neither afford language lessons, nor have the aptitude at their age to learn, nor wish to pass an exam by mouthing things they don’t believe in.”
The suspicion that some Latvians see this as payback time, a chance to make the Russians suffer just as they did for 50 years, is strengthened by the statements of nationalist politicians. Last week the head of the parliament’s foreign affairs committee Alexander Kirsteins described the non-citizens as “civilian occupiers”.
Since September, Russians have no longer had the right to be educated entirely in Russian. Now, in the last three years of school, 60% of subjects must be taught in Latvian.
Russian speakers in Latvia are one of the biggest national minorities in Europe, at almost 40% of the population.
The Cold War may be over, but in Latvia it’s still smouldering.
I have to say that perestroika cut aruptly short in the moment when the new union agreement had appeared at last that should save and decentralize the SU in which the republics were going to become sovereign states inside the Union. That was the way to stop the desintegration. That's was just it. Because the country stayed cooperative, connected by human ties, economically, socially, in science- all that kept the country as the whole , inside of which no borders were, but administrative ones.
We started from this idea. And led the situation to the point, when in the begining of August the agreement was published that we, Russian and others, had to sign. It was on 20th August. All agreed except Baltica.
M.Gorbachev, 10 of March, 2005.
http://www.radiomayak.ru/schedules/6852/20372.html
On the Latvian situation, I think Dwayne was absolutely right by saying: "There are nationalists on both sides of this conflict and that makes very difficult to solve it." We can be glad that it did not escalate into a military conflict, as in the territories of Former Yugoslavia...
What'cha talkin' bout?
the real deal ramblin' freak is out there lets get crazy
English sucks in every sense!
Real Deal,
Nationalists suck.
English is great.
Mishka,
>>> I would call it discrimination as well. <<<
Then you should turn your eyes to the situation in Russia. Here children of emigrants have no opportunity to study their mother tongue in state schools at all, let alone entirely education in their native language. So why do you apply so different standards here and there?
>>> Equally bad, you mean? <<<
If it is so bad why do you hear that from other natinalities but Russian. After all, still Russian speakers have much advantages in this resepct compare to other minorities.
I do not say that the situation with the human rights is perfect, but in recent years Latvia made some changes in its law to harmonize it with European standards, so there is some improvement here. On the other hand, certain issues remain unsolved, particularly, concerning the status of non-citizens. But what even more disturbing is statements made by extremists on both sides intended to incite national hatred.
>>> an exam in Latvian history (in which they must answer "correctly" that Latvia was not liberated by the Soviet Union from the Nazis but occupied and subjected to a further 50 years of totalitarian rule). <<<
I wonder how a sane person can believe that the Soviet Union liberated Latvia from the Nazi, when there the Soviet Union signed the pact with Germany, invaded in Latvia (in the same time when Germany invaded Poland), murdered and deported many people to Siberia, and annexed the territory. To liberate means to give freedom, while in this case, it's clear that freedom was taken away from people of Latvia.
>>> Now, in the last three years of school, 60% of subjects must be taught in Latvian. <<<
So what is the problem here?
>>> Since September, Russians have no longer had the right to be educated entirely in Russian. <<<
How many countries do you know where in state schools you can educated entirely in non-state language?
>>> Russian speakers in Latvia are one of the biggest national minorities in Europe, at almost 40% of the population. <<<
But that does not mean that they entitled to more rights than other minorities. And in my opinion, if anyone came to live in a country then he or she should learn the language of this country. It is not about to forget your native language, but to acquire one more. Those who do not learn the language of the country where they are living for many years are extremely arrogant and should not be surprised that other people do not like them. Dont' get me wrong. I do not say that all Russians are arrogant. I know many Russians show real respect to the Latvian language and its culture, but unfortunately there are some others who make Russians look like "civilian occupiers.” Of course, Alexander Kirsteins went to far calling all non-citizens by that name; but, unfortunately, he was right about some of them.
There is a similar situation with the huge Hispanic diaspora in the United States. However, I have not heard that they take to the streets of NY or LA or demand that their children be educated in Spanish in the US public schools. Anyway, these two situations (viz. Russians in Latva and Hispanics in USA) would be a very interesting subject of comparatize analysis.
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