Aplogies to all Lusophones here : I don't speak Portuguese at all. I admit it's very more difficult for me to grasp words and meaning in Portuguese spoken by real people than in Spanish or Italian for instance. That said, I have the feeling it's 'easier' (for me, a native Francophone with no knowledge of Portuguese) to guess some Portuguese words (the ones that look like their Italian, Spanish and French equivalents) when spoken by Brazilians. Do you think it's logical or could this impression wrongly caused by low or poor exposure to Lusophony ?
Portuguese people have a bad diction. That's why Tribalistas and/or Bebel Gilberto are more popular than Portuguese artists like Mariza or Mônica Cyntra.
«Portuguese people have a bad diction. Jacyra.»
Again: you should say they have a different diction.
Ah, back to Garcia and you saying Brazilians rather read Spanish than Portuguese Portuguese: about 2 or 3 weeks ago, Veja Magazine, out of the 5 books they recommended, 2 were from Portugal. ( One I remember, having read it myself, is called Equador, written by Miguel Tavares).
It said it was superb reading . Do you think it was translated into Spanish for them so they could have better grasp?
Greg:
The Portuguese swallow their vowels while Brazilians stretch them.
Initially Br. Portuguese is easier to understand but once your ear is accustomed to PT Port.,it really makes very little difference.
Greg,
Your question is difficult to answer in a short paragraph. However, I will try to be as concise and informative as possible.
To say that brazilians speak more clearly than portuguese is very relative. It depends on the words you choose to do the comparison as well as on the Portuguese variant you first learned or are exposed to.
Most of the differences in pronunciation are found in words containing more than two syllables and exhibiting unstressed, closed vowels. If you first learned Brazilian Portuguese, you will find that the majority of those words are said more clearly by brazilians. They pronouce untressed vowels as open vowels, whereas portuguese people will either pronounce them as closed or almost “mute” vowels. For example: televisão (En television; Br: televizãun, Pt: t(e)l(e)vizãun), cabelo (En hair Br cabelu or cabelo, Pt c@belu or c(@)belu), coração (En heart; Br corasãun, Pt: cur@sãun, or c(u)r@sãun), pessoa (En person; Br pessoa, Pt: p(e)ssoa), escrever (En write; Br: escreveh or eshcreveh, Pt: (e)shcr(e)v(e)r.
(e): closed or “almost mute” e, @: closed a, (@) "almost mute" a.
The european Portuguese ‘S’ before a consonant (pronouced as sh or dz) or at the end of a word (sh or dz) sounds very disagreeable to most brazilians as well as to people who learned Brazilian Portuguese first. On the other hand if you learn European Portuguese first, the brazilian variant will sound very affected and unnatural to your ears. It has too many tchis and djis. Many consonants at the end of a word are not pronouced. The r before a consonant is pronouced like the english h in ‘hat’. Nasalisation is also exaggerated in Brazilian Portuguese.
Following words are easier to understand if pronouced according to the european phonetik: dia (En day Br djia Pt: di@ or di(@)), quarto (En room, fourth Br quahtu; Pt: quartu), porta (En door, Br pohta; Pt porta), quente (En hot, Br ke~nchi, Pt ke~nt(e)) leite (En milk; Br leichi, Pt leit(e)), ritmo (En rhythm; Br richimu, Pt ritmu), Brasil (Br Brasiu, Pt Br@sil).
Some words are pronouced equally complicated in Portugal and Brazil (for someone learning Portuguese as a second language). For example, verdade (En truth; Br vehdadji, Pt v(e)rdad(e)), voz (En voice; Br vois, Pt vozh), luz (En light; Br luis, Pt luzh).
Going back to your question. I think you have had poor exposure to Portuguese from Portugal. After proper exposure to e.g. the Lisbon accent, you will find it is not so difficult to understand as many brazilians may want unexperienced people to believe. But if you do not want to understand European Portuguese or have prejudices against it, then you will never understand it.
pronouce, pronouced= pronounce, pronounced
Phonetik=phonetics
unexperienced should be inexperienced,
dz should be zh
>>The r before a consonant is pronouced like the english h in ‘hat’. Nasalisation is also exaggerated in Brazilian Portuguese<<
That is not always true in Brazil.The pronunciations you are explaining occur mainly in the Carioca accent that occurs in Rio De Janeiro. Brazil is a very large country with different regionalism just like that occur in Portugal. For example, in Sao Paulo they roll their r's unlike the Cariocas, there is hardly any sh sounds, and tch and dzh sounds are less common. In the South of Brazil the accent is remarkably closer to Argentine Spanish. Though the Carioca accent is used as a national norm sense they use it in Soap Operas and Music.
Carioca accent is not a national norm, but a Candango/Brasiliense accent (from our Capital, Brasília). All newscasters have this accents (Ana Paula Padrao) or try to immitate it (Fatima Bernardes). Accents used in dubbing foreing movies are paulistano and brasileinse, never carioca.
And you cannot say carioca accent is used in music. Only Rio-born people use it, but many cariocas use a more neutral accent (closer to Brasília) to make their song less sh-full and rrrrrrrrrrrr-full.
And all of Axé is sung in Soteropolitano/Baiano accent, not carioca: Daniela Mercury, Ivete Sangalo, Jammil e uma noites, Banda Eva, Banda Beijo (ok, Babado novo's leadsinger is a carioca Claudia Leite, so she is using a carioca accent even the songs are axé, but it's because she was born in Rio)...
Mineiro accent is used by: Milton Nascimento, Ana Carolina, Skank...Neutral/brasiliense accent is used by Natiruts and Capital Inicial...and so on and so on.
The neutral accent is from Brasília (DF), but capixaba (ES) and mineiro (MG) are pretty close, carioca being the most marked accent and avoided in national newscasters system and dubbing.
Well, in Brazil, TIA/DIA is type of pronunciation used mainly by poor hillybilly rednecks with no propper schoolling. The normal pronunciation is TCHIA/JIA
Thanx Huchu for your time and explanations.
Preçado/caro JGreco,
I wasn't describing only the Carioca accent. If you read my posting again you'll notice that I wrote, e.g. 'escrever (En write; Br: eScreveh or eSHcreveh...)'.
Regarding the accent from São Paulo (sotaque paulistano), I think it is very heterogeneous. I must tell you that I've heard many people from the city of São Paulo say 'quahto or 'quahtu' (quarto, En room, fourth), 'ahchi' (arte, En art), 'fohchi' (forte, En strong), etc. Of course, you also hear quartu/quarto, archi, forchi, etc. Many singers who don't use the Carioca accent at all and who are neither from Rio nor São Paulo, e.g. Daniela Mercury, also pronounce the R before a consonant like the english H in ‘hat’.
It's true that the chis and djis are not so markedly pronounced in São Paulo as in Rio (well I think this is also variable), but they are still present in the 'sotaque paulistano'. I've never heard a brazilian say 'dia' (En day) regardless of where he or she comes from. All brazilians I've met say 'djia' or 'jia'.
Please correct me if there is a brazilian accent lacking the djis/jis and chis.
As to the exaggerated nasalization (at least to my ears) of Brazilian Portuguese, I believe one can generalize about it, since it doesn’t only occur in Rio. The letter A before N or M, e.g. in ano (En year), chama (En flame), etc. is very strongly nasalized, even more than the dipthongs ‘ão’ or ‘ões’. All brazilian singers I've heard so far seem to have a built-in loudspeaker in their noses (please don't misunderstand me).
French and Brazilian Portuguese sound so sexy because they sound so nasal. Continental Portuguese and Polish don't sound nasal at all, they sound very Slavic :) and I don't find them sexy.
Again, I don't speak a word of Portuguese and I admit French are Portuguese are clearly two distinct languages, sharing some striking phonological similarities though (nasalisation). That said, I kind of agree with Você quer nasalizar avec moi? regarding Brazilian Portuguese (that I don't understand) : some BP sounds are are really close to French or vice-versa.