I'm glad you mentioned a "true" bilingual. This is really something to admire-a person who is competent in all areas in both languages.
Models for Multilinguals
K.T- That's a nice image of Japanese dialects. I would add the following:
"Tokyo-standard." :
In terms of accent I agree but Tokyo has some forms that got accepted in the whole country such as "cho" for expressing "very", "-chau" like "tabechau" and "dayone"...
"Osaka-used by comedians, good for men-The Manly Accent. "
YESSSS! The only problem when learning this is that there's no turning back!! Even when I try to speak standard Japanese my accent is still stained with the osaka drawl!!! :)
"Kyoto-refined, good for women. Words differ from Tokyo ben for many common words. "
It is indeed a very soft dialect when spoken by women. Recently it became closer to Osaka-ben with the expection of the "-haru" forms for honorific language, which is a little different from Osaka. For instance in Osaka one says "ikIharu" for going whereas in Kyoto it's "ikAharu". In Osaka one says "SHIharu" for doing whereas in Kyoto it's SHIYAharu. It's almost the same nowadays. The thing gets tought when older people speak or some Geisha in the Gion (祇園）area.
"Hokkaido-I've heard it's standard. I almost never have trouble understanding people from this island." :
Accent is like Tokyo because many people from Tokyo moved there, or so I heard. However, there are lots of words from the northeast dialects.
"Okinawa-it's different, but I don't know much about it. They used to have another language, but I don't know how this has or if it has influenced the language. "
I don't really think that Japanese and Okinawan (Ryukyu dialect) belong to the same linguistics family because they're as different as Korean and Japanese. I would like to know how the dialect sounded before the clan of Satsuma (Nowadays KAGOSHIMA)arrived there in the 13th century if I'm not mistaken.
Well, I lived one year in Okinawa and saw 2 different languages. One is the tradicional "uchinaaguchi" （沖縄語）,which is totally different from Standard Japanese and spoken mainly by older people. On the other hand there's the "Uchinaa-yamato guchi" (沖縄大和語）,which consists of Standard Japanese with a different accent and words borrowed from the Okinawan language such as "ippei" for "very" like "kyou ippei atsui sa" (Today is very hot), "dakara sa" with the meaning of "that's it" or "sou da" in Standard Japanese and many words that are ininteligyble in Japan like "gachimaya" (person who eats a lot), "furaa" (fool) , "chiburu" (head),etc...
My dissertation in my master's degree was about the final "sa" in the "uchinaa yamato guchi" speech...It wasn't that good, though...
Oh yeah, the Okinawan dialetcs are divided into 2 main groups:
Amami and Okinawa dialects(沖縄・奄美方言）, which includes the dialects from the AMAMI and Okinawa mainland.
Sento(Front island?) dialects （先島方言）, which includes the dialects from Miyako （宮古島）, Yaeyama （八重山） and Yonaguni （与那国）.
I had the opportunity to visit the island of Ishigaki (In the yaeyama islands) and "thank you" is "tandigatandi"(タンディガタンディ）whereas in Okinawa(Shuri dialect) it's "Niheedeebiru" (二ヘーデービル）.
I found this interesting SHURI dialect dictionary:
http://ryukyu-lang.lib.u-ryukyu.ac.jp/srnh/index.html
"Kobe: It seems the stress is reversed at times to Tokyo.":
They're very quiet when compared to the crazy Osaka people and use "-to" for the gerund form whereas Osaka uses "-ten" or "-ton". Now that I work in Kobe I'll try to listen more, if they talk to me of course, which isn't very difficult with the chatter-box people from Osaka. :)
"Tokyo-standard." :
In terms of accent I agree but Tokyo has some forms that got accepted in the whole country such as "cho" for expressing "very", "-chau" like "tabechau" and "dayone"...
"Osaka-used by comedians, good for men-The Manly Accent. "
YESSSS! The only problem when learning this is that there's no turning back!! Even when I try to speak standard Japanese my accent is still stained with the osaka drawl!!! :)
"Kyoto-refined, good for women. Words differ from Tokyo ben for many common words. "
It is indeed a very soft dialect when spoken by women. Recently it became closer to Osaka-ben with the expection of the "-haru" forms for honorific language, which is a little different from Osaka. For instance in Osaka one says "ikIharu" for going whereas in Kyoto it's "ikAharu". In Osaka one says "SHIharu" for doing whereas in Kyoto it's SHIYAharu. It's almost the same nowadays. The thing gets tought when older people speak or some Geisha in the Gion (祇園）area.
"Hokkaido-I've heard it's standard. I almost never have trouble understanding people from this island." :
Accent is like Tokyo because many people from Tokyo moved there, or so I heard. However, there are lots of words from the northeast dialects.
"Okinawa-it's different, but I don't know much about it. They used to have another language, but I don't know how this has or if it has influenced the language. "
I don't really think that Japanese and Okinawan (Ryukyu dialect) belong to the same linguistics family because they're as different as Korean and Japanese. I would like to know how the dialect sounded before the clan of Satsuma (Nowadays KAGOSHIMA)arrived there in the 13th century if I'm not mistaken.
Well, I lived one year in Okinawa and saw 2 different languages. One is the tradicional "uchinaaguchi" （沖縄語）,which is totally different from Standard Japanese and spoken mainly by older people. On the other hand there's the "Uchinaa-yamato guchi" (沖縄大和語）,which consists of Standard Japanese with a different accent and words borrowed from the Okinawan language such as "ippei" for "very" like "kyou ippei atsui sa" (Today is very hot), "dakara sa" with the meaning of "that's it" or "sou da" in Standard Japanese and many words that are ininteligyble in Japan like "gachimaya" (person who eats a lot), "furaa" (fool) , "chiburu" (head),etc...
My dissertation in my master's degree was about the final "sa" in the "uchinaa yamato guchi" speech...It wasn't that good, though...
Oh yeah, the Okinawan dialetcs are divided into 2 main groups:
Amami and Okinawa dialects(沖縄・奄美方言）, which includes the dialects from the AMAMI and Okinawa mainland.
Sento(Front island?) dialects （先島方言）, which includes the dialects from Miyako （宮古島）, Yaeyama （八重山） and Yonaguni （与那国）.
I had the opportunity to visit the island of Ishigaki (In the yaeyama islands) and "thank you" is "tandigatandi"(タンディガタンディ）whereas in Okinawa(Shuri dialect) it's "Niheedeebiru" (二ヘーデービル）.
I found this interesting SHURI dialect dictionary:
http://ryukyu-lang.lib.u-ryukyu.ac.jp/srnh/index.html
"Kobe: It seems the stress is reversed at times to Tokyo.":
They're very quiet when compared to the crazy Osaka people and use "-to" for the gerund form whereas Osaka uses "-ten" or "-ton". Now that I work in Kobe I'll try to listen more, if they talk to me of course, which isn't very difficult with the chatter-box people from Osaka. :)
Sorry for the MANY spelling mistakes...It took me more time to find the correct information about the Ryukyu dialects than actually writing about it...
That was very, very interesting. Thank-you, J. C.
Comparing Kobe and Tokyo: I noticed that the PITCH on two-syllable words was reversed at times. I didn't write down examples because it "bothered" me at the time. I didn't want a mixed accent.
Comparing Kobe and Tokyo: I noticed that the PITCH on two-syllable words was reversed at times. I didn't write down examples because it "bothered" me at the time. I didn't want a mixed accent.
"Comparing Kobe and Tokyo: I noticed that the PITCH on two-syllable words was reversed at times. I didn't write down examples because it "bothered" me at the time. I didn't want a mixed accent."
K.T.-Sorry for not addressing your comment properly. Could you give me a better example of what you said?
From what I see Kobe is said to be the "posh" and "sophisticated" area of Kansai, reason why they might want to change their accent sometimes...
Cheers!!
K.T.-Sorry for not addressing your comment properly. Could you give me a better example of what you said?
From what I see Kobe is said to be the "posh" and "sophisticated" area of Kansai, reason why they might want to change their accent sometimes...
Cheers!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansai-ben
This may be interesting for Japanese learners. I found it interesting as well. Back to the question, what I noticed was that the pitch accent was different. NIhon versus niHON (Caps being the higher pitches). Apparently Osaka does the same thing, but I'd like to see a survey comparing pitch accent for common words in all three areas.
This may be interesting for Japanese learners. I found it interesting as well. Back to the question, what I noticed was that the pitch accent was different. NIhon versus niHON (Caps being the higher pitches). Apparently Osaka does the same thing, but I'd like to see a survey comparing pitch accent for common words in all three areas.
K.T.
Thanks for the interesting link. However, much of the information is based on the traditional dialects of the Kansai area, which is different according to age.
Young people use the new-dialect or 新方言, which has a strong influence of the Standard Japanese.
But it's a good start to find one's way in Kansai.
About the bibliography, there were some books I used when I first studied Kansai Japanese in 1995 at the time I lived in Okinawa (Why the heck was I studying Kansai-ben in Okinawa?).
Honnara!!
Thanks for the interesting link. However, much of the information is based on the traditional dialects of the Kansai area, which is different according to age.
Young people use the new-dialect or 新方言, which has a strong influence of the Standard Japanese.
But it's a good start to find one's way in Kansai.
About the bibliography, there were some books I used when I first studied Kansai Japanese in 1995 at the time I lived in Okinawa (Why the heck was I studying Kansai-ben in Okinawa?).
Honnara!!
Hmmm, the speakers I know from Kobe are in their mid thirties. I don't know if they would be in the new dialect category or not.
K.T.
Very interesting link. I'm glad to know that the "difficult" Japanese language is being researched and dismistified by the "gaijins". It's about time the Japanese realize their language isn't THAT difficult.
I remember what I first heard when I had linguistics lessons in Brazil back in 1991:
"Languages aren't difficult, they're just different"
Well, some people have more difficulties learning certain languages because of the distance between his/her native language and the target language but that can be worked out with time. Also, the more one learns foreign languages, the more one can see the similarities.
Well, I guess I should go back to my studies so I can piss off one more native speaker of the "exotic" (What does this mean?) languages...hehe
"Hmmm, the speakers I know from Kobe are in their mid thirties. I don't know if they would be in the new dialect category or not."
K.T.-san: Well, I think this age is still in the neo-dialect thingy, even though you might be considered an OSSAN (ojisan) or OBAHAN (Obasan) at this age!! :)
If you talk to someone in his 60's it's possible to hear a REAL Kansai dialect, which is difficult to understand sometimes. Once I was lost in the city of Matsubara (Southern Osaka) and asked an "ojiisan" how to get to 阪南大学（Hannan University) just to hear 「ここからまっすぐ行きなはれ」(Go straight from here), which shows the ending "-nahare" for the imperative form and is NEVER used by younger people. Living and learning the language...
Cheers
Very interesting link. I'm glad to know that the "difficult" Japanese language is being researched and dismistified by the "gaijins". It's about time the Japanese realize their language isn't THAT difficult.
I remember what I first heard when I had linguistics lessons in Brazil back in 1991:
"Languages aren't difficult, they're just different"
Well, some people have more difficulties learning certain languages because of the distance between his/her native language and the target language but that can be worked out with time. Also, the more one learns foreign languages, the more one can see the similarities.
Well, I guess I should go back to my studies so I can piss off one more native speaker of the "exotic" (What does this mean?) languages...hehe
"Hmmm, the speakers I know from Kobe are in their mid thirties. I don't know if they would be in the new dialect category or not."
K.T.-san: Well, I think this age is still in the neo-dialect thingy, even though you might be considered an OSSAN (ojisan) or OBAHAN (Obasan) at this age!! :)
If you talk to someone in his 60's it's possible to hear a REAL Kansai dialect, which is difficult to understand sometimes. Once I was lost in the city of Matsubara (Southern Osaka) and asked an "ojiisan" how to get to 阪南大学（Hannan University) just to hear 「ここからまっすぐ行きなはれ」(Go straight from here), which shows the ending "-nahare" for the imperative form and is NEVER used by younger people. Living and learning the language...
Cheers
Yes! I found the thread. J.C.-san, thanks for the information on Osaka-ben. I enjoy dialects and since I speak the standard Tokyo dialect, I don't get to hear these "gems".
Difficulty of Japanese: Now, it doesn't seem bad, but I've been studying it for years. The study really never ends in languages. It's a marathon runner's, not a sprinter's language because of the endurance needed to learn the Kanji. Now, man, I love Kanji and I don't have much trouble remembering things, but it still took a long time to learn how to read.
The best thing is that Japanese made Hebrew look easy and Hebrew made Arabic look learnable. Japanese took the fear out of Korean and Mandarin. As you know, it just gets easier and easier as you learn more languages.
I need to work on a few now.
Difficulty of Japanese: Now, it doesn't seem bad, but I've been studying it for years. The study really never ends in languages. It's a marathon runner's, not a sprinter's language because of the endurance needed to learn the Kanji. Now, man, I love Kanji and I don't have much trouble remembering things, but it still took a long time to learn how to read.
The best thing is that Japanese made Hebrew look easy and Hebrew made Arabic look learnable. Japanese took the fear out of Korean and Mandarin. As you know, it just gets easier and easier as you learn more languages.
I need to work on a few now.
KT, how do you learn Kanji? I couldn't say for myself, but if I were to, I would do it in context rather than to deal with it with *some* rote-learning books I mentioned.
I used different sources, Xie. After I had a grip on some of the major radicals, I did a lot of rote work, but I still looked up the original Chinese drawings in a great French book about Kanji (Memento Des Kanjis).
Radicals? Well, shame on me, but I can't recognize a lot of radicals with less strokes. Ever from the time of Xu Shen, radicals had been very much random things... they could change over time, and may now be written in different forms.
But well, that's why I think it makes more sense just to learn the graphs rather than the radicals, though it's a big advantage to know all of them.
But well, that's why I think it makes more sense just to learn the graphs rather than the radicals, though it's a big advantage to know all of them.