Why are English speakers so lazy about learning?

Xie   Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:10 am GMT
>>If any of the two professors spoke French would you count that as something? Have you ever asked either of them whether thay have ever done even one year of French (or German or Latin etc) at any school or university?

One studies English, the other philosophy. The latter claims to know some Latin, but no French whatsoever.

There are luckily two linguists who learn my language, but a bit far from functional fluency. The less fluent one may know more of, exactly, those second languages more popular than mine.

Besides all the four Anglophones above, my German teacher claims not to know any word of my language despite being married to a local man... and have two children which we are very curious about - mixed kids. It's still ok to see the first two (having no direct connection to my language), but the two linguists have Chinese wives, and my teacher has a Chinese husband.

But just like how I was told by a non-learner, that my German may have to beat Germans' English to talk to them not in English, nobody's Chinese (I've talked to so far) is strong enough to beat my English. No, I DON'T want to speak English if they can speak mine well, but it seems like very few ever really master it to that pleasing level.

Yes, perhaps the same applies to some Chinese students/scholars in non-Anglophone countries. I find language barriers frustrating when it seems like, just because many of us don't learn a third language, sometimes I even think (rather ... bad, I admit) an Anglophone friend would be more worthwhile than someone who isn't, simply because we then share a better means of communication.

==

You can see my stereotype. Simply because "second languages" (Chinese is rather at the bottom of this list, yeah, stereotypically) rarely appear in my mind (and possibly many others), it's been so convenient to auto-assume that foreigners speak English. If they are white, they must be Anglophone (or from the rest of the richer part of Europe, namely the western part) or be able to speak some English; if they aren't, they must be speaking sth else that I can't understand. But when "tourists" (who have the money) can be here anyway, why bother to use something other than English, when I don't know a single word of them?

Newspeak is dangerous, not because of the language itself or even the authority (who actually doesn't impose it on countries they don't rule), but because of stupid non-Anglophones who are never understanding, care about figures only, and have some sort of inferiority complex.

The supposed "laziness" of certain Anglophones is now affecting the mind of non-Anglophones too, so that they might feel second foreign languages (English being the first) are entirely unnecessary.

To eliminate this stereotype isn't easy. First, abolish English. Second, overthrow all that capitalism of language teaching business. Some other non-Anglophones, like some Europeans, well, yes, it's "good" to see the little presence of theirs here, but classes at large won't offer you much, and in some way it could only strengthen that laziness in kids who share my language.

For the n-th time, of coz, let me put a disclaimer here: plz, don't pick up on me for politically (in)correct reasons, such as that I'm bashing my people or having a stereotype. I think I'm already a person who is understanding enough to be here. Many Chinese still think they can't learn a language - now that their English (and possibly even their language) sucks and classes are expensive and ineffective, just like for some Americans (this is universal, huh?), they often think of an excuse which might actually be true: if my English sucks, how can I learn French/Spanish (and so on)?

Yeah, yeah, this is of coz very gross, but it's both boring and uninspiring to censor my words. Being PC all the time doesn't deny the fact that many people don't think (insert any adverbs here) like you. Many of my peers remain more or less monolingual, and just because of language barriers, they know quite little about why many of their ideas are stereotypes... AND why that PC of you guys is so ... to put it bluntly, hypocritical.
Xie   Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:20 am GMT
>>to that pleasing level

That is to say, native speakers (when I see learners of my language) often won't care WTF u do with their language. If you can't put your ideas in it very well,... chances are that you end up using more English than it.

But I kind of think that you can't compare my language with your European relatives. Your relatives are widespread everywhere. Mine isn't. Mine is just as obscure as some of your "smaller" relatives in small countries of Europe. As I (only) see it, it's just as rare for me or someone from one of such countries to see a _learner_, and as rare as... you know, people who marry people of the different sex and of _a difference race_ (and here, a different native language).

What stereotypes do _we_ have? When some dudes talk about "foreign girls", the most common answer might be those from Japan, followed by white girls in general... and some ****heads already think of one of the measurements of themselves, and then show signs of inferiority complex. But the ultimate question, they might think of, is: we rarely ever meet foreign girls.

Question. Answer. End. It's not a question of whether that is a no-no but, rather, whether it's possible at all. Do you remember? "If my English sucks..." how well can I talk to a person, so that s/he (that's up to u) could become your significant other? This linguistic question is already bewildering enough.
Guest   Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:37 am GMT
<<Newspeak is dangerous, >>

Interesting post Xie, but can you explain what you mean by this? I've read the book yeah but I don't get the context...
Day-Shawn   Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:38 pm GMT
**What stereotypes do _we_ have? When some dudes talk about "foreign girls", the most common answer might be those from Japan, followed by white girls in general... and some ****heads already think of one of the measurements of themselves, and then show signs of inferiority complex. But the ultimate question, they might think of, is: we rarely ever meet foreign girls.**

In my experience Xie, Vis-à-vis the *assumed* construct of a so called physical measurement of value or in this case, the beauty of a foreign girl, when the heads already think of one of the measurements themselves, it's because an oppressive situation already exists, in the total of the sum. You see? You have to get your heads around *that* before you can effect change on a global or even a Chinese level. When most dudes talk about foreign girls, the most common answer in my environment is not Japanese girls followed by white girls. That is to say, th emost common answer is acknowledged to be Jewish dental assistants closely followed by Asian girls of indeterminate nationality and a nondescript occupation or vocation, *independent of LOcation*. That's just it you see? Your assumption of the measurement is based on a false god, metaphorically you see because the Asian female of the human species is highly valued in North American culture.

<you know, people who marry people of the different sex and of _a difference race_ (and here, a different native language).>

Often as not, people marry or at least integrate to copulate, with someone of the gender and or race and language of their individual or collective preference. You see it's metaphorically, a sexual kaleidoscope of musical chairs with the proverbial one hand clapping on the ass of the preferred object of desire. As it should be because such is evolution. This will inevitably cause or *contribue to* the so called *browning of America*, which started with the first importation of unwilling Black African slave labor to the shores of the North and South American continents.

<Question. Answer. End. It's not a question of whether that is a no-no but, rather, whether it's possible at all.>

That's the beauty of the kaleidoscope, Xie. You can't have the question first if the answer is already there in front of you. You have only to open your eyes and see for yourself. Like when Jesus said, ask and ye shall receive... but in this case you've already received, baby. It's all the way live. The only no-no would be if you accept the old paradigm. To question the possibility is to accept the old paradigm and in doing so you cut off the prospect before it comes to your proverbial door. Even in the questioning you deny the answer! So to the question/answer/end, you have to say answer/end and you have to refuse to acknowledge the question. Mveo beyond the paradigm of the oppressor, Xie. It's a New World Order with no one in charge!
Caspian   Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:17 pm GMT
I'm not lazy, and many of my friends are not. Don't be so judgemental.
Miraz   Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:50 pm GMT
I'm not lazy, and many of my friends are not. Don't be so judgemental. >>

I wouldn't worry. The original poster was trolling, but the question of Americans learning foreign languages is always grist for the "let's bash Americans" mill. It's a fact of life on this forum.

It's the same simplistic thinking you see with American racists who notice that a high percentage of blacks are incarcerated in the US and say, "see, black DNA is criminal DNA", without looking at the underlying socio-economic issues. People who are bigoted against Americans see that the average look at us and employing the same simplistic logic say, "see Americans are lazy because the majority of them are monolingual".... without looking at our geography or other factors that make it easier for a European to become fluent in a second or third language. In Europe, countries are smaller, families move from one country to another more frequently, trade between countries with separate languages allows or encourage Europeans to learn other languages and give them regular opportunities to practice. A French truck driver may make deliveries in Spain, Germany, France, Belgium and Luxembourg. An American truck driver can drive three times that distance and still be in Alnglo territory. In the US, when you live closer to the Mexican border, you find more bilingual people. These facts are ignored by the "Americans are fat and lazy" crowd. Ironically, these are the same people who accuse Americans of being arrogant and narrowminded! Go figure. Caspian, you just have to laugh it off because it's theatre of the absurd.
Guest   Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:08 pm GMT
">n American truck driver can drive three times that distance and still be in Alnglo territory. In the US, when you live closer to the Mexican border, you find more bilingual people.<"

Yet many U.S. Americans are reluctant to learn Spanish - a language which has been historically spoken in the Southwest. It goes to show many American's ignorance, xenophobia and fascism.
Guest   Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:31 pm GMT
">Yes, and there is none in Europe?? No muslim riots in the US. How well would I do as a Muslim in France or Germany. I was treated like a third class citizen. Jews are treated almost as bad in Europe as Muslims. I found the countries in Europe (I only had experiences with Austria, France and Germany) to be the most intolerant, nationalistic plces I've ever seen. For a person with olive skin and an Arab name it was horrible. In the US, I have not experienced this at all, even with the problems brought about after 9/11.<"

In Europe there is hatred against Muslims because Muslims keep on imposing their laws, values and what nots into the European secular system - and which sometimes they -Muslims- get their way. As opposed to the Mexicans in the continental U.S. Mexicans don't impose their values, laws or what nots into the American republican system - Mexicans don't get their way. Yet many Xenophobic / Fascist Americans fear the immigrants are causing a drastic change in the continental U.S. which is redundant because they are not, for the reason that the Southwest (amongst others) has had a Mexican / Spanish historical presence since the 16th century. And it is not unusual to find places, names of towns & streets, historical sites etc being named or founded by Spanish settlers.

">So please tell me in which country do they let foreigners immigrate and they don't require use of the host country's language? This is absurd to comment that the US requires people to learn English, as though it's unusual to have a national standard for communicating.<"

Canada for one generally does not pressure you to learn English as the U.S. does ad infinitum. The evidence that the U.S. does this purposely is there via: television, school, work, and communicating with the vast majority of U.S. Americans. The so-called incentives are there to make the immigrants or legal residents leave behind their language ergo their culture.

">You must be an arrogant American to presume to tell the poster that he is not speaking his family's language correctly. You don't even know what language it is and you were not there when she was speaking so you have actually no idea what you're talking about. How can one evaluate such a specious comment? Some people just like to practice their English.. just like you are on this site.<"

When someone is born in another country one loses his native enunciation, and so when one travels to his native country people usually pick up on his speech, grammar or wordage use. Northern Europeans are already well brought up in the English language most specially in the Nordic countries to be wanting to practice their English - seriously.

">That statement is very bigoted. You put all Americans in one category. How arrogant of you. It's like if I say, All extremists should be shot to death! The statement itself contradicts the sentiment you are trying to express. You are probably an Arrogant Englishman.<"

I don't care; because it holds truth. I contradict myself, hah, when you write I must be an American then a Englishman. lol.
Muslim Guest   Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:32 pm GMT
<<television, school, work, and communicating with the vast majority of U.S. Americans>>

Are you saying that in Canada, if I speak only Arabic, the school and television stations will handle all communications in Arabic and the vast majority of Canadians will converse with me in Arabic and I won't have to learn English or French?

<<In Europe there is hatred against Muslims because Muslims keep on imposing their laws, values and what nots into the European secular system - and which sometimes they -Muslims- get their way.>>

That's a very facist statement. As a matter of fact most of us are non-religious. I have never been in a mosque and I am not religious. My father is an atheist and my mother is a feminist who votes for the Green party candidate in every election. But I have an Arab surname and that's enough for Europeans like you to justify your xenophobic outlook toward Arabs, without knowing anything else about me. There is a minority of very vocal Muslims who want to impose Islamic law on all of the world and adhere to the whole caliphate nonsense. Most of us are not into that and yet in Europe we are all treated with the same disdain, not because we have individually attempted to impose ourselves, but because we are not French, or German. What about the extreme anti-Semitism throughout Europe? Do the Jews also try to impose Halacha on the rest of the population? We have not had a genocide in the US in this century. How many have you had? Bosnia, Hitler.... you have a funny perspective to accuse others of xenophobia and facism! In a glass house you throw a lot of stones.

<<Yet many Xenophobic / Fascist Americans fear the immigrants are causing a drastic change in the continental U.S.>>

It's not xenophobic in the sense that it's anti-foreigner. You don't hear the same complaints in the US about Arab, Indian or Asian immigrants. My family is a family of immigrants who speak with accents, but we are middle class. When you see the issue up close, as I do, living in the US, you would realize that the anti-Mexican sentiment is largely a socioeconomic issue, which is expressed as resentment of the very poor. It's similar to the sentiments of West Germans toward East Germans after unification. Put another way, the same people who complain about Mexican influence on US way of life would complain just as much if Appalachian people from the mountiains of West Virginia moved into the rest of the US by the millions. Unlike Asians, Arabs or Indians, the poorest Mexicans can walk across the border into the US whereas the poorest of Arabs, etc cannot. You need a plane ticket to get here and so because we who come from a greater distance are not perceived as being poor, we are not reviled. Unfortunately there is probably not any country that will welcome the poorest of another country to live among the host country because the host country would rightly fear that these pooere people would be a drain on the economy. Why has France or Austria or Denmark not welcomed a few hundred thousand Palestinian refugees? Do you think people would complain in Denmark if a million secular Palestinians moved to Copenhagen? Would you yourself welcome a few million of the poorest of your own nationality? Be honest abotu this.

<<When someone is born in another country one loses his native enunciation, and so when one travels to his native country people usually pick up on his speech, grammar or wordage use.>>

To some extent you are correct. I do have an accent when I speak Arabic, but I've studied Arabic literature and my grammar is very correct.


<<I don't care; because it holds truth.>>

Your perspective is limited by the propaganda you read no one is going to cause your mind to open even a little because you don't seem like the kind of person who will accept ideas that contradict ones that you have already adopted. It's like teh small town people in the US who will vote Republican no matter how horrible teh Republican candidate is. They have their bible and their religion and their flag and that's all they need. Science will not convince them that evolution is real. You are of the same close minded mindset but your religion is anti-Americanism and anti-Muslim. You aren't strong enough to admit when there's an area where you can learn something. For example, I am willing to admit that certain of my religion are a nuisance... as we in my family also view them. We are embarrassed by honor killings and jihad just as you would probably be if someone from your race acted as if he were living in the 10 century. This stereotype causes resentment I understand that and I try to act in a way that shows we are not all backwards. But it does not justify condeming an entire people, as you have justified. To make it worse, you are not willing to even see your own bias in this area because in your arrogance you believe you already know everything. This will prevent you from learning anything new. This is why Europe is stuck in their economic development, just as much of the Arab cultures are stuck, because of small mindedness. You will have another genocide and you will justify it.
Guest   Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:56 am GMT
">>>Are you saying that in Canada, if I speak only Arabic, the school and television stations will handle all communications in Arabic and the vast majority of Canadians will converse with me in Arabic and I won't have to learn English or French?<<<"

If it is a large Arab community were to settle in a certain province - sure they would. But this was not my original message, you misinterpret it, as Canada being lenient and docile when it comes to language barriers. I was refering about how the U.S. decisively tries to make immigrants or legal residents learn English then their culture via all the methods I had mentioned.

">>>>>>>That's a very facist statement. As a matter of fact most of us are non-religious. I have never been in a mosque and I am not religious. My father is an atheist and my mother is a feminist who votes for the Green party candidate in every election. But I have an Arab surname and that's enough for Europeans like you to justify your xenophobic outlook toward Arabs, without knowing anything else about me. There is a minority of very vocal Muslims who want to impose Islamic law on all of the world and adhere to the whole caliphate nonsense. Most of us are not into that and yet in Europe we are all treated with the same disdain, not because we have individually attempted to impose ourselves, but because we are not French, or German. What about the extreme anti-Semitism throughout Europe? Do the Jews also try to impose Halacha on the rest of the population? We have not had a genocide in the US in this century. How many have you had? Bosnia, Hitler.... you have a funny perspective to accuse others of xenophobia and facism! In a glass house you throw a lot of stones.<<<<"


It is the truth, not a fascist statement. How is it a fascist statement? It may be nationalistic statement as Europeans are known to be secularists. A fascist statement would be the following: Europeans are the elite, and reason of the world and everybody else is just a corruption or backward version of our mindset. Don't twist statements to your liking. So you were brought up in a not very religious environment; so what, notwithstanding a minority of you enlighten muslims are not going to change the fact that in Europe many muslims are constantly testing their culture's laws / values unto the European secular system. The reason why Muslims may be discriminated by some Europeans is because they are testing Europeans to the limit, and gaining ground on certain laws and values, which is angrying many Europeans. The Jewish influence in Europe is noWHERE near the influence it has on the U.S.A - so quit spewing nonsense. This does not apply into the Mexican situation in the States yet many U.S. Americans detest Mexicans for unfounded or biased accusations.

The U.S. has had genocides against the Native-Americans. Why do you think they are not any more left in the U.S. but circa 3 million? When in reality, perhaps, half of them are mixed or partially mixed. The Americans strategically and decisvely annihilated them via: mala fide treaties, misplacement dogmas, Manifest Destiny, diseases and killings = genocide. Which proves in effect the British / Americans desired to take them out one by one, or have them fight against one another to have less of burden. And let us not forget how the U.S. seized Mexican land unjustly; without a just cause or reason.

If anything, the U.S. Americans are as guilty as the Europeans.


">>>>>>>>It's not xenophobic in the sense that it's anti-foreigner. You don't hear the same complaints in the US about Arab, Indian or Asian immigrants. My family is a family of immigrants who speak with accents, but we are middle class. When you see the issue up close, as I do, living in the US, you would realize that the anti-Mexican sentiment is largely a socioeconomic issue, which is expressed as resentment of the very poor. It's similar to the sentiments of West Germans toward East Germans after unification. Put another way, the same people who complain about Mexican influence on US way of life would complain just as much if Appalachian people from the mountiains of West Virginia moved into the rest of the US by the millions. Unlike Asians, Arabs or Indians, the poorest Mexicans can walk across the border into the US whereas the poorest of Arabs, etc cannot. You need a plane ticket to get here and so because we who come from a greater distance are not perceived as being poor, we are not reviled. Unfortunately there is probably not any country that will welcome the poorest of another country to live among the host country because the host country would rightly fear that these pooere people would be a drain on the economy. Why has France or Austria or Denmark not welcomed a few hundred thousand Palestinian refugees? Do you think people would complain in Denmark if a million secular Palestinians moved to Copenhagen? Would you yourself welcome a few million of the poorest of your own nationality? Be honest abotu this.<<<<<<"


Asians have been discriminated in the U.S. in the past, present and future. For example: the arrival of Chinese immigrants in the early 1900s, the Japanese during WW2 etc. The Arabs have only been recently mistreated because of 9/11 but even so in the past the Arabs were looked as subservient people with no power in the U.S.A - that is why 9/11 happened to clear up this view. As for the Indians - the Brits had their hands dirty with them in the past.

The anti-Mexican sentiment is simply because U.S. Americans are misinformed about the dynamics of U.S. (economic) imperialism, zombies to their government, and simply because some Americans are racist towards other minorites / races and get off on it. But, most importantly because the U.S. likes glorifying itself as the greatest in the world and its people believe it for many factors which are visible to them and what have you; so they discriminate against the so-called threats. The Mexicans not only flood the U.S. country by the thousands yearly but they also invest or contribute to it as well, without asking for any pats in the back. Sure...they may exploite some stuff (i.e., health-care) but that is fine...I mean they are not taking away any superior health plan for U.S. Americans. lol.

France, Austria and Denmark have had enough Arab migration to its country. Plus many of them (the Arabs going there) have already changed or twiked some of them laws to suit the immigrants or legal residents who have NOT had an historical tie with the land as do the Mexicans of the U.S.A. To answer your question: I would personally, though, welcome the million so-called secularist palestinians into my country as it lacks them tremendously; even though they are low income people but as a requirement they would have to prove themselves as do the Mexicans in the U.S. who does not care a rat's arse.


">>>Your perspective is limited by the propaganda you read no one is going to cause your mind to open even a little because you don't seem like the kind of person who will accept ideas that contradict ones that you have already adopted. It's like teh small town people in the US who will vote Republican no matter how horrible teh Republican candidate is. They have their bible and their religion and their flag and that's all they need. Science will not convince them that evolution is real. You are of the same close minded mindset but your religion is anti-Americanism and anti-Muslim. You aren't strong enough to admit when there's an area where you can learn something. For example, I am willing to admit that certain of my religion are a nuisance... as we in my family also view them. We are embarrassed by honor killings and jihad just as you would probably be if someone from your race acted as if he were living in the 10 century. This stereotype causes resentment I understand that and I try to act in a way that shows we are not all backwards. But it does not justify condeming an entire people, as you have justified. To make it worse, you are not willing to even see your own bias in this area because in your arrogance you believe you already know everything. This will prevent you from learning anything new. This is why Europe is stuck in their economic development, just as much of the Arab cultures are stuck, because of small mindedness. You will have another genocide and you will justify it.<<"


It is not propaganda as you say it is but a revelation which has been happening since 8 years ago, and the even before, but not as drastic as the past 8 years ago of drastic change towards the U.S.A. becoming more and more fascist, egotistical and regressed.

Anti-muslim? lol. When did I indicate I was anti-Muslim? All I had stated was that Muslims are very cunning in foreign lands - that's it. Now, of course the bible belt people of the U.S.A won't see anything beyond their horizon - naturally - that is because those values have become ingrained in those particular areas and have vast support from its own country to be that way. Plus, in those areas HIGH enlistment for the Marines, Army and Navy are high in numbers so this could also play factor of why the government needs these ignorant people.
Xie   Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:18 am GMT
>>you see because the Asian female of the human species is highly valued in North American culture.

I don't really think I'm writing parables when I see your style. Sorry, I just can't get it. I think my message can boil down to just that: stereotypes are to be talked about, and we are to get an understanding of it, not to spread it to everybody else who is often monolingual and unfortunately (this is my value judgment) don't have the chance to see things beyond their vision.

No, your post is TLDR.

>>without looking at our geography or other factors that make it easier for a European to become fluent in a second or third language.

But indeed, how fluent are the Europeans? Unless you are raised and taught by people of multiple native languages, you can't really learn that many - and you could get no language if you are forced to learn too much for too little time.

The main concern I've addressed so far is the value of English between monolinguals (like me), bilinguals (like mixed children), and foreigners. Chances are that they use more English than their native, and unless you stay with them for a long time, chances are that you'd refuse to learn from the other.
Xie   Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:29 am GMT
On second thought... yes, I get your only point I can from the above sentence.

but again, to put it rather roughly, I'd say inferiority complex is pretty much the dominant problem I'm actually talking about.

Truly, at times I wish there were more learners of mine. I can't stand sometimes the fact that everybody who bumps into me would only speak English, no matter how badly. My language is a populous one but have a disproportionate number of learners, so that......... I'm like a German who would only want to talk to you in English when I find that your Chinese is too novice/ totally unintelligible or you simply don't know it. When I've met dozens of foreigners and all except a few (who are linguists, or married to locals) can't understand a single word of it... it's too easy to auto-assume that no one would learn it and I won't talk about it anymore.

Last time, my Canadian acquaintance, who was to stay here for multiple years, admitted that he would forget random phrases very quickly, so what he only picked up was profanity phrases - which he couldn't write nor pronounce accurately. Then I know: ok, my language is as obscure as some random ones in some small-ish countries worldwide (though it's actually a huge country), so I won't bother to do anything with it when I'm with him.

That might be pretty much the most common response people like me get. Chinese girls should be a great point of learning their language, but I find it a market plot to spread the message that, just because it's populous, there would soon be tens of millions of SL learners worldwide. And you see, I seldom put things in mine here.
Xie   Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:44 am GMT
I think (yeah, just me, that's subjective) I should be open-minded enough to put these ideas on antimoon, for example; nor am I the kind of person who says, as a Japanese guy, that "you can only learn to speak Japanese natively by having Japanese blood" and all that. But then, yeah, it's all too rare to see someone who knows it. Despite all those PC ideas in me, I just can't treat Ho Kwok Wing, for example, even as an ordinary friend (now, suppose I'm of his age and he's not a famous person), just like any random Chan/Chen - he's Aussie, after all. That's just like I can't treat a man like a woman, or a woman like a man.

And last time, when I saw another (half) Aussie woman who _truly_ spoke my language natively (having been born and raised locally), I still couldn't help judging her linguistic ability by her face - complexion, that is. I was surprised and I wondered: could she have memorized her lines by shadowing? could she have been in my country for a long time? could she have a local husband? (all except the Japanese blood)

But then, when I googled for her info.... ah, yeah, she even claims to be Chinese, and she's really a complete native, all except complexion. As a student from one of the probably most developed cities, I of coz know that linguistic knowledge has nothing to do with descent, but THIS particular Aussie woman is a very, very rare exception. But at the moment that I knew she's a complete native, all that mystique was gone. She's still NOT a person who learned my language as an adult, after all.

So, my "mental" count is: there are countless students (highly educated, that is) from every developed countries that can speak English; there are a few millions in Germany who can speak German; there are probably a fraction of them in Beijing who can speak Mandarin. But mine? Probably another fraction of Mandarin - I have to "count" it, that is. This is sad. I have to talk to almost everybody with my English (bad, supposedly), and I often can't understand what others are saying - in Mandarin or English.

Her Chinese certainly beats every fluent laowai (but is she a laowai anyway?) I've ever seen, but this is still too rare. So, don't dream that my language could be an international one within one or two decades. Chances are that you have to learn it very hard, and you would be treated rather differently from others.
Guest   Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:05 am GMT
<<So, don't dream that my language could be an international one within one or two decades. Chances are that you have to learn it very hard, and you would be treated rather differently from others.>>

You're being to picky and claiming everyone has to speak it perfectly. English is just as hard to learn to a native level as Chinese, so get off your high horse... It's just we are more tolerant than you.
Guest   Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:28 am GMT
<< Her Chinese certainly beats every fluent laowai (but is she a laowai anyway?) I've ever seen, but this is still too rare. >>

Chinese? I think you mean Cantonese.

<< who _truly_ spoke my language natively >>

Do you have patent, trademark and/or copyright ownership of the Cantonese language? Can you impose a financial penalty on a Western person who uses Cantonese without your permission? Do Western people have to obtain a licence from you to use Cantonese?