Catalan anyone?

John   Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:25 pm GMT
Salut tout le monde, hola todo el mondo!
Some questions. I'm going to Barcelona for a month in the fall. I am an English-speaking Canadian who also speaks French and a very little bit of Spanish.

I bought a DK eyewitness guidebook for Barcelona and was surprised to look in the back for "helpful phrases" and they were in Catalan. I've never been to Spain and curious about anyone's visit to Barcelona.

Question 1. I should be fine communicating en espanol (castellano)correct?

Question 2. Is Catalan a dialect of Spanish or is it in fact its own language?

Question 3. Would people be a little irritated if I greeted them, "Buenos dias, como esta Ud.?"

Question 4. Is Catalan the language of books and "castellano" the language of the street?

Question 5. Is Catalan actually spoken as a maternal language?

Question 6. If I find someone who doesn't speak English and I can't understand their language, would they might be able to speak some French?
Guest   Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:30 pm GMT
Catalan can be considering both a language and a dialect according to S. Coseriu. But those who speak it are very nationalistic and won't like to hear from someone that it is just a dialect . If you plan to visit Barcelona you will hear Spanish mostly but if you choose rural Catalonia probably you will find peasants who speak Catalan only, it depends. Yes, French is widely understood in Catalonia as this region is near to the French border. I guess that it will be even more useful for you than English but I can't assure it.
Lo trobador   Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:30 pm GMT
Question 1. I should be fine communicating en espanol (castellano)correct?

All catalan people know spanish but not everybody in Catalonia know catalan .

Question 2. Is Catalan a dialect of Spanish or is it in fact its own language?

Nowadays it is considered as language for the international philology , but until the end of XIX century a lot of philologists considered it as an occitan dialect , but has never been considered as an spanish dialect .

Question 3. Would people be a little irritated if I greeted them, "Buenos dias, como esta Ud.?"

I don't think they would be irritated only for telling them " Buenos dias ..." , but unluckily the illogical nationalism is increasing in Catalonia day by day , and you can meet some " australopithecus " that if you talk to them in spanish they would answer you in catalan even though you say to them that you don't understand catalan .

Question 4. Is Catalan the language of books and "castellano" the language of the street?

Language of books ?? . If your are referring to the language of the schools in Catalonia , then all the classes are in catalan except for two hours per week in spanish and some hours of foreign language .

Spanish is marginalized and excluded in catalan schools although more than the 50% of catalan people have this mother tongue . They only deserved " two hours " .

Young people read books in catalan and spanish , elder people are not as used as young people to read in catalan and they prefer spanish .

In Barcelona city you can listen both languages in the streets , but in the villages , the rural zones , catalan is almost the only laguage listened in the streets but they are able to talk in spanish.


Question 5. Is Catalan actually spoken as a maternal language?

In Catalonia ( not counting the new african and south american inmigration ) around 40-45% of catalan people have catalan as mother tongue and around 50-55% spanish

Question 6. If I find someone who doesn't speak English and I can't understand their language, would they might be able to speak some French?

French ??, . Maybe in some parts of the north of Catalonia which are close to the frontier with France know french , but it isn't a widespread fact in the whole Catalonia . I would say that I don't think that more than 5% of catalan people know french . English is the foreign language that almost everobody young person is learning nowadays . 15-20 years ago people in Spain learned english or french in the schools as " subject " ( well , " learned " is an euphemism since you only had 3 or 4 hours in a week an that was unable to give you the enough level to talk that language ), but in the last years french have declined a lot in the preferences of catalan schoochild .

By the way athough catalan is among latin languages , the closer language to french together with occitan , spoken french and catalan are unintelligible , even a catalan would understand much more a person talking in italian than in french .
Guest   Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:45 pm GMT
If you're a foreigner people will be happy to speak with you in Spanish, they only get pissed about people from other parts of Spain who live in Catalonia but never can be bothered learning Catalan.
Guest   Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:01 am GMT
So Catalan and Spanish aren't mutually intelligible?
Guest   Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:08 am GMT
Тhey are highly mutually intelligible. Much more so than Spanish/Italian or Spanish/Portuguese.
Xie   Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:49 am GMT
This is funny. I find a lot of unusual things of Catalan (judging the posts here) as a regional language - yes, Catalan folks, I think your ____ is a language because you have a good definition.
Guest   Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:54 am GMT
Comparison - see how similar they are:

SPANISH:

Considerando que la libertad, la justicia y la paz en el mundo tienen por base el reconocimiento de la dignidad intrínseca y de los derechos iguales e inalienables de todos los miembros de la familia humana,

Considerando que el desconocimiento y el menosprecio de los derechos humanos han originado actos de barbarie ultrajantes para la conciencia de la humanidad; y que se ha proclamado, como la aspiración más elevada del hombre, el advenimiento de un mundo en que los seres humanos, liberados del temor y de la miseria, disfruten de la libertad de palabra y de la libertad de creencias...

CATALAN:

Considerant que el reconeixement de la dignitat inherent i dels drets iguals i inalienables de tots els membres de la família humana és el fonament de la llibertat, la justícia i la pau en el món,

Considerant que el desconeixement i el menyspreu dels drets humans han originat actes de barbàrie que han ultratjat la consciència de la humanitat; i que s'ha proclamat com l'aspiració més elevada de tothom l'adveniment d'un món on els éssers humans, deslliurats del temor i la misèria, puguin gaudir de llibertat d'expressió i de creença,
Güest   Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:46 am GMT
<< Question 5. Is Catalan actually spoken as a maternal language?

In Catalonia ( not counting the new african and south american inmigration ) around 40-45% of catalan people have catalan as mother tongue and around 50-55% spanish >>

Actually it's not that easy to say, because many inhabitants of Catalonia are practically fluent in both languages, and many wouldn't be able to tell which one is their mother tongue, because they grew up with both languages simultaneously.

I'd say a large chunk of those who grew up in Catalonia simply has two mother tongues: Catalan and Spanish.
Guest   Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:08 pm GMT
Considering ethnologue.com Central Catalan has 87% lexical similarity with Italian, 85% with Portuguese and Spanish, 76% with Rheto-Romance, 75% with Sardinian, 73% with Rumanian.

So Catalan is more similar to Italian than to Spanish. I heard from Italian friends from North Western Italy that Catalan is like a Gallo-Italian dialect: same sounds of Milanese or Piedmontese.
Guest   Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:15 pm GMT
About Italy I know that Catalan is a co-official in the City of Alghero. In Italy, Catalan has an official status; Spanish not.
Guest   Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:24 pm GMT
Coseriu is a contemporary linguist, not from the XIX century. The distinction between language and dialect is not based only in linguistic genetics but also has to do with the prestige of the language/dialect and its literary tradition. In France there are many languages that are different enough from standard French to be considered genetic languages on their own but as they are not used but in informal situations, they remain as dialects or "patois". In this sense Catalan is patois too since for example most important local Catalan newspapers like La Vanguardia are writen in Spanish and not in Catalan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenio_Co%C5%9Feriu
Guest   Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:14 pm GMT
"If you're a foreigner people will be happy to speak with you in Spanish, they only get pissed about people from other parts of Spain who live in Catalonia but never can be bothered learning Catalan."

That's quite true, but we can forget that the Catalan authorities go mad about language from time to time. For example, some recent cases I remember right now:

- Catalan authorities encourage people to address foreigners and turists only in Catalan.

- Catalan authorities seem upset about children talking in their mother tongues -- mainly Spanish -- in the playground of schools, when they should be speaking Catalan. Catalan schools are an only-Catalan territory. Spanish is a foreign language, just like English.

- Shopkeepers being fined for not using Catalan in notices outside their shops. That's astonished, because in other parts of Spain where only Spanish is spoken you can easily find notices only in Chinese, German or English.

- Air Berlin having some sort of run-in with the Balearic authorities, again about language.
Mallorquí   Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:18 pm GMT
Only a few exampes of catalan newspapers:

1) http://dbalears.cat/

2) http://www.avui.cat/

3) http://www.vilaweb.cat/

4) http://www.elperiodico.com/default.asp?idioma=CAT

5) http://www.diariandorra.ad/

etc.

See Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_language

More?

Enciclopèdia Catalana (25 volumes) : http://www.enciclopedia.cat/

Or Diccionari Català-Valencià-Balear: http://dcvb.iecat.net/

More than 8.500 books (titles) publied in 2007.

Official language in Catalonia, Valencia and Balearic Islands. Only official
language of the Republic of Andorra.

Basic language (vehicular) in school.

Is that enough?
Guest   Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:28 pm GMT
If I am not mistaken La Vanguardia is the most read newspaper in Catalonia and it is only printed in Spanish because it couldn't be otherwise if the owners of it want to make money. You can't compare a true profitable newspaper with others like Avui, that I guess it is the one you read, that are subsidied by the regional Government , draining Catalans' money. People in Catalonia use Spanish mostly and on the other hand the Government spends money in newspapers writen in Catalan without much success because nobody reads them, appart from a few freaks.