Are some Scottish and Irish accents really inintelligeble?

Pete   Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:22 pm GMT
Hello everyone. Many native-speakers say they have problems with certain accents. I've met lot's of Americans saying they cannot understand Irish accents very well. They don't explain why. And I don't understand this since in my opinion, some Irish accents are similar to American ones. And they sound very clear.

What about Scottish accents? Lot's of English people say that they speak more correct English in the south, and that the one in the midlands is OK, but the one in Scotland is not so good. And they claim that they can't understand some Scottish accents!!

How come that in my entire English-speaking experience, I haven't heard any Irish or Scotish accents difficult to understand? Is there really such thing as a terrible Scottish or Irish accent or it's just a matter of ignorance and prejudice?

I would really apreciate opinions from Irish and Scottish people. But in general what are your thoughts?
Pete   Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:27 pm GMT
Shit, correcting mistakes again, damn spelling:

It says:

...I've met lot's of ...

It should say:

... I've met lots of ...
Damian   Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:03 pm GMT
It depends on several things....one being the number of Scottish people you've actually met as well as their background....in other words, your familiarity with Scottish accents. Another factor is the part of Scotland the speaker is from. It's generally accepted that the Edinburgh /Borders region accent is well understood by people from outside Scotland if there are not many local dialectal terms being used in standard "formal" speech. The same goes for some of the Highlands and Islands accent, which is fairly mild and quite lyrical and it seems to be one of the fave of the Scottish accents as far as visitors to Scotland are concerned,

The one accent which causes the most "difficulty" is that of Glasgow (where else!) and the kind of person you are trying to converse with (as I say, social background and educational level can make a difference). It can be quite harsh and full of colloquialisms.

If you were to come to Edinburgh you would experience no difficulty at all with regard to ordinary day to day contact with people.
Rick Johnson   Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:35 pm GMT
There is not usually any particular region that is harder to understand than any other. There are people who are hard to understand all over Britain and Ireland, North, South, East and West- I still occasionally come across people who I can't understand.

I once worked in a factory, when I was a student, only 5 miles from where I live and stood looking like a moron when the supervisor asked me to do things because I didn't have a clue what he was saying. At the same time I've travelled all over the UK, the US, Canada, NZ and Aus and have understood 99% of people easily.
Uriel   Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:15 pm GMT
I think that for me, Irish accents are very easy to understand, but some very strong Scottish accents are not. It's not just the pronunciations that differ, it's also the rhythm and stresses that are very different.
JJM   Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:11 pm GMT
""Is there really such thing as a terrible Scottish or Irish accent or it's just a matter of ignorance and prejudice?

No and yes.
Guest007   Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:41 pm GMT
RP is not really used in Scotland or Ireland. These countries have their own, respective version of RP. People who speak "RP Scottish" or "RP Irish" English are very easy to understand. Then there are some other less "elegant" accents which may cause some difficulty. Finally, there are some very broad local accents which are not only unintelligible, but barely even sound like English at all. As a matter of fact, the most refined Dutch, German, or Scandinavian accent sounds a lot closer to "refined English" and is MUCH easier to understand than the very broadest working class accents of England, Scotland, Wales, or Ireland (or even the US or Australia for that matter).

There have been two occasions in my life where I had an opportunity to talk with a Scottish person. Both times were when I called a travel agency. the first travel agency was based in New York. The second one was based in London. On both occasions I found myself asking them to repeat themselves. I felt bad having to do so and was afraid they might be offended but I didn't really have much of a choice.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it really depends on the individual speaker. Unfortunately, only a very small minority of people in the UK and Ireland use the "elegant" accents that you sometimes hear in the movies or on the world news. Many Americans watch these epic movies and think to themselves how nice accents from the British Isles are.

The sad truth is, however, that most people in the British Isles who are NOT actors or who do not come from a "posh" background or who have NOT attended a "posh" school speak gibberish. That is why so many students from other parts of Europe who go to the UK to "learn English" come back bitterly disappointed. You see, the English that is used by their teachers or that which they've heard on ESL audio CD's sounds nothing like the English which is spoken like the average person on the street or in a shoppe. Thus, interacting with people (asking for directions, conducting a transaction in a store) can often be quite frustrating for non-native speakers and even, occasionally, for native speakers from other countries or other parts of the UK and Ireland. Fortunately, most college professors talk "nice" so that foreign students studying abroad can make sense of what they are saying. It's when they go out to buy a cup of coffee that everything goes to hell on a stick.

As Professor Higgins said: "If only the English would speak English..."
Pete   Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:10 am GMT
<<The one accent which causes the most "difficulty" is that of Glasgow (where else!)>>

With respect Damian but I don't think so. I haven't had trouble understanding accents from Glasgow in fact I think there are some slight diferences with that from Edinburgh, but still similar.

The only accents I had problems with were: Cockney (but then got used to it) and a type of American accent wich I can't quite place.

Is it true that in England they discriminate against people with that kind of accents? then my ignorance and English prejudice theory is true...
Brennus   Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:51 am GMT
Pete,

I've never known any immigrants from Scotland, Belfast or the Republic of Ireland here in Seattle who had accents that were difficult for native Americans to understand. On the other hand, I have known a few from Lancastershire and Yorkshire in northern England who did.

It is true though that the Irish and Scotch (those in their native homelands) did learn English imperfectly during the British colonial period and that some traces of Celtic syntax and pronunciation exist in their speech - the Irish brogue, the Scottish burr etc.
Candy   Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:57 am GMT
<<The sad truth is, however, that most people in the British Isles who are NOT actors or who do not come from a "posh" background or who have NOT attended a "posh" school speak gibberish. That is why so many students from other parts of Europe who go to the UK to "learn English" come back bitterly disappointed. You see, the English that is used by their teachers or that which they've heard on ESL audio CD's sounds nothing like the English which is spoken like the average person on the street or in a shoppe. Thus, interacting with people (asking for directions, conducting a transaction in a store) can often be quite frustrating for non-native speakers and even, occasionally, for native speakers from other countries or other parts of the UK and Ireland. Fortunately, most college professors talk "nice" so that foreign students studying abroad can make sense of what they are saying. It's when they go out to buy a cup of coffee that everything goes to hell on a stick. >>

Gibberish???? You cannot be serious!!! You're criticising British people for not speaking 'as they're supposed to', rather than criticising ESL material for giving students a false idea of how English is spoken by REAL people! It's you who needs to get real! That's how it is. Nobody in the world, British or otherwise, is obliged to speak their native language 'nicely' because that's how some people think it 'should' sound.
Damian in Edinburgh   Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:19 am GMT
There truly are some grotty accents in the UK...well, maybe not the accents so much as the manner of speech in our precious English Language. I don't want to start (or rekindle) an Anglo-Scottish "flame war" but if you are dumb enough to watch TV progs like "Trashy" Trisha or that of the smug, self-righteous male-bashing Jeremy Kyle or even Jerry Springer (who is about to start another British version of his mad show) ...all similar shows....then you really will hear the worst examples of dross Britspeak. I don't mean "gross" (although that fits) but dross, because the subject matter involved is dross.

Pete: OK...so you have no probs with Glasgowspeak...a lot of people do, you know, and not all of them non-Scots. As I say, it really depends on the people with whom you speak and the circumstances such as environment and location......such as a late Saturday night pub in inner city Glesca (sorry....Glasgow) and you're guaranteed to experience at least some communication probs! Ask Bill Bryson...his account of an encounter in such a pub was hilarious....his response to the guys attempting to chat to him in a very friendly manner was that he came from the English speaking world and hadn't got a clue what they were saying to him. I would not have experienced his problems because I am a Scot even though I come from Glasgow's great rival.....Auld Reekie. You are quite right...there are differences between Glescaspeak and Eddiespeak.

Anyway, like Edinburghers, Glaswegians really have to make themselves understood because both cities have a huge influx of visitors from all over the world.....tourism is a mega important in both cities.
Pete   Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:16 pm GMT
<<The sad truth is, however, that most people in the British Isles who are NOT actors or who do not come from a "posh" background or who have NOT attended a "posh" school speak gibberish. That is why so many students from other parts of Europe who go to the UK to "learn English" come back bitterly disappointed. You see, the English that is used by their teachers or that which they've heard on ESL audio CD's sounds nothing like the English which is spoken like the average person on the street or in a shoppe. Thus, interacting with people (asking for directions, conducting a transaction in a store) can often be quite frustrating for non-native speakers and even, occasionally, for native speakers from other countries or other parts of the UK and Ireland. Fortunately, most college professors talk "nice" so that foreign students studying abroad can make sense of what they are saying. It's when they go out to buy a cup of coffee that everything goes to hell on a stick.

As Professor Higgins said: "If only the English would speak English...">>

uh uh! Guest007 has shown himself again. Well, I partially agree with you. But I'd tend to say that it's a bit difficult for me to understand some accents on the phone. It's quite true that in Britain, not everybody speak with those plummy accents that Hollywood (whatever you spell it) want to make us think but you people cannot deny that normally when people with a strong accent talks to someone in order to be better understood uses proper language, and I say language not accent.

<<Gibberish???? You cannot be serious!!! You're criticising British people for not speaking 'as they're supposed to', rather than criticising ESL material for giving students a false idea of how English is spoken by REAL people! It's you who needs to get real! That's how it is. Nobody in the world, British or otherwise, is obliged to speak their native language 'nicely' because that's how some people think it 'should' sound.>>

As Guest007 very accurately mentioned, it can be really frustrating... the difference between common people speech, and the classical RP the teach in schools in England. However, nobody can blaim Schools for teaching a way of English wich is nicer, clearer and very correct.

We all agree that the most difficult skill to achieve for a non-native speaker is "hearing and understanding", and getting used and learning how certain accents sound. So about this point of frustration in students when hearing this or that accent is all clear, all of you non-native speakers in this forum , including me, understand that. Personally I had a very grim time when first listening to some English and American accents. So, there's nothing to argue about this, I reckon.

Of course no learning or practice of a particular accent is required for any student of English. So why in the world... Candy, and I mean no offence... Why in heaven's name we should criticise Schools for teaching a form of English which is definitely clearer? Would you (or anyone really) explain for me why students should learn REAL spoken English.
Don't get me wrong people, I'm not saying that English people should speak this way or that, with this RP accent, with Queens English... No, that is unworkable... Only an insane person would try to impose the use of certain accent to a determined group of people. Instead, you say, that it'd be better for students to get real and learn English as spoken by the English... Hence, a student would need to train himself on the practice of certain accent. And if we talk about London, where many famous schools are located, that would mean learning the Londoner posh accent (a version of RP) or much worse learning Cockney.
So my answer is a definitely NO.

So you make this clear to me: "Why can't the English modify their speech to better understood when they find a non-native speaker? and besides you want schools to teach students a cockney accent to sound real?"
And when someone learns an American accent the English criticise us for that, "you should learn British English, it's more correct" they say. But when someone learns British English and speaks with an English accent, some English people feel uncomfortable and don't want to admit that this non-native speaker has a REAL English accent... This doesn't make any sense at all to me.
Pete   Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:51 pm GMT
<<It is true though that the Irish and Scotch (those in their native homelands) did learn English imperfectly during the British colonial period and that some traces of Celtic syntax and pronunciation exist in their speech>>

Sorry, but what you have said is a bit insulting because:

Firstly, you say that they learnt an imperfect way of English. I'm sorry but I think that's too general not all Scotts speak with a crappy Gaelic accent, right. That's only in the highlands where they have English as a second language. In this topic I'm talking about English native speakers from Ireland and Scotland. But, yes it's true that some have a Gaelic influence. I suppose. Since there in Peru, my Country, there are people in the highlands who speak Spanish with a strong Quechua accent (confusing and merging Spanish "e" with "i", and "o" with "u" and using the quechua "r" which is similar to the Turkish one which is something like "rsh", of course not exactly) and sometimes understanding those guys' Quechua-Spanish accent can be a bit dificult. (Quechua is an ancient language widely spoken in South America. And historycally spoken by the whole Inca Empire which started there in the central highlands of Peru and spoken all over Peru until the XV century when those Spanish bitches arrived and easily fucked up and took over the Inca empire, hahaha)

And secondly, "Scotch" is the name of a drink. The real names of people from Scotland is "a Scott, Scotts". They feel insulted when you call them "Scotch". But it happens to almost everyone to make that mistake. So I guess you Damian, the symbol of Scotland here, can forgive us for that. ;)
Pete   Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:55 pm GMT
<<It really depends on the people with whom you speak and the circumstances such as environment and location......such as a late Saturday night pub in inner city Glesca (sorry....Glasgow)>>

LOLOLOLOL, quite true I suppose. Try and learn Spanish. Then go and have a look at Peruvian bars and discotecs, that's really challenging. LOL
Damian   Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:05 pm GMT
Thanks Pete.....! The only Scotch is the golden nectar which comes out of a bottle.

Hey, you're Peruvian! Great! The fantastic Andes would make our Scottish Highlands look a wee bit tame. Scotland's Ben Nevis, the highest mountain in the British Isles, is just 1344m. I bet you have molehills higher than that in Peru. I'd love to confuse them all in a Lima bar.....attempting Peruvian Spanish with a Scottish accent would be more than just a challenge....it would be a bizarre test in keeping a straight face.

Just one minor correction.....Scott is a guy's first name ...or it could be his last name...so you could have a guy called Scott Scott. If he comes from Scotland, then he would be a Scot! Scott Scott is a Scot. (No need for the extra T!) :-)