Are some Scottish and Irish accents really inintelligeble?

Uriel   Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:12 pm GMT
<<Why in heaven's name we should criticise Schools for teaching a form of English which is definitely clearer? >>

Well, clearer for who, Pete? That's pretty subjective. it may be easier for you because that's what you happened to learn, but not for other people who learned (or speak) some other dialect.
andre in usa   Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:18 pm GMT
I can understand an Irish accent just fine, but some Scottish accents are so strong they sound almost like a foreign language to me.
Damian in Scotland   Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:30 pm GMT
I think it's understandable why Americans generally have no difficulty in understanding Irish accents (assuming we're talking about the Southern Irish accent...that from the Republic. The Northern Irish accent is something quite different altogether. Eg: the word "now" in NI comes out like "noy", nothing like the Southern version. That's just one point of difference).

So many Irish people (from the South) emigrated to America en-masse from the mid 19th century onwards, so I think the influence of the Irish accent on the local accent in parts of America was pretty strong, and with the Irish diaspora many Americans became familiarised with it, and there are similarities between the two.
Pete   Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:53 pm GMT
Well, Uriel. If you ask me clearer for who. It is clearer for me. But you say it's a subjective thing, it's not really. I'll explain why.

All over Europe you can ask anybody to say which variety of English they prefer and I assure you that 80% of the people will answer "British" English. And they, sometimes without knowing it, are talking about RP English. And If you asked them why, they'd say "bacause it's clear and nice". I can't really know how many times I've asked that. And I always get the same answer.

Now if you go to my homeland and ask the same thing the result will be a bit different. In Mexico they answer "American English" , the same as in the rest of central American countries. And If you go down to Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, etc. They say: "I prefer American English, because it's the language that is more widely spoken by people all over the world" (which is true). And if you ask them about "British" English they'd say: "No, I prefer American. "British" is too correct, too snobbish, too posh..."

In South America, most of them prefer American English because it's what they sadly have everyday. They hear it in films, songs, computer games, etc. That's because of the American influence in South America. And they don't like "British" English because they usually don't know anything about it. Only 5% of the Language schools in Peru teach British English, so I dare to say it's a matter of ignorance rather than real knowledge about the subject. They don't hear English accents, they don't know about English. The only "British" English they get is the poor samples which they hear in Hollywood films, just that.

RP English, is definitely clearer than any other variety.
Bob   Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:33 am GMT
The majority of continental Europeans can't tell the difference between American and British accents. They can't determine a Northern English accent from RP or an Irish accent, so it's clear their judgement is based solely on stigmatization as what is "clear and nice" is entirely subjective. It's no wonder, since they don't speak English very well or have enough exposure to native English speakers.

Even of the few who speak English with native-like fluency, many are unable to make out such accents as Canadian from American, or English from Australian.
Uriel   Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:48 am GMT
Well Pete, I would argue that since I speak American English, I find that dialect and accent "clearer" TO ME than RP, which is a foreign accent. So it IS subjective.

Most Europeans who learn English probably do learn the British RP variety because the UK is the local source. So what? That doesn't make it intrinsically "better" or "clearer" than other varieties. It just makes it the version they are most familiar with.
Guest007   Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:26 am GMT
Candy, I have only two things to say to you:

1) GO FUCK YOURSELF!!! (It's because of attitudes like yours that the English language is in such a sad state - nobody wants to speak intelligibly so that they will not - God forbid - be labelled as "posh").

2) Use a screen name that doesn't make you sound like you are a some stupid little slut (although you probably are).
Guest   Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:35 am GMT
Oh and what kind of screen name is Guest007?
G-007 the man-whore... pimping around in his underwater car.
Guest007   Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:17 am GMT
Actually, Roger Moore, Pierce Brosnan, and all the other 007 characters were very handsome, intelligent, sophisticated, and eloquent. Also, a pimp is someone who manages and controls and even sometimes takes advantage of girls who have sex with men in exchange for money. The 007 characters were merely having sex with women - not overseeing their sexual activity with other men and also not collecting any money (or giving any money for that matter).

You, on the other hand, are not handsome, intelligent, sophisticated, and eloquent. I know that because you are criticising someone who IS (007 in this case). If you actually WERE handsome, intelligent, sophisticated, eloquent, and having sex with beautiful girls then you would not be making a comment like "Oh and what kind of screen name is Guest007?
G-007 the man-whore... pimping around in his underwater car." The fact that you made this comment proves that you have are NOT handsome, intelligent, sophisticated, eloquent, and having sex with beautiful girls. You sound like what some ghetto American speakers call a "player hater".



Don't be jealous just because no girl wants to have sex with you.

Also, there is no such thing as a "man-whore". I have never encountered that expression before (in oral or in written form) in my entire life. Men who receive money from rich, older women for their company and/or sex are called "gigolos". Now correct me if I'm wrong but to my knowledge no 007 character in any of the movies has ever received money from any rich, older woman in exchange for his company and/or sex. If that WERE the case then you would be absolutely right in saying "Oh and what kind of screen name is Guest007? G-007 the man-whore... pimping around in his underwater car." However, that NOT being the case it would probably be best if you also just "fucked off".

People often like to criticise that which they cannot have but which they secretly covet (albeit they may vehemently claim they don't).

What kind of red-blooded man would NOT want to be handsome, suave, sophisticated, drive a nice car, and have sex with many beautiful women (or with many handsome men if he is gay, I suppose).

You are the first person I've come across who has criticised a man for having too much sex with too many women. You are either a mean and bitter man OR a very staunch feminist OR a lesbian.

The bottom line is that you really shouldn't be criticising someone just because he speaks clear, proper, intelligible English and gets laid once in a while (or often as the case might be).
Candy   Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:19 am GMT
This was what I posted:
<<Gibberish???? You cannot be serious!!! You're criticising British people for not speaking 'as they're supposed to', rather than criticising ESL material for giving students a false idea of how English is spoken by REAL people! It's you who needs to get real! That's how it is. Nobody in the world, British or otherwise, is obliged to speak their native language 'nicely' because that's how some people think it 'should' sound. >>

And that's the response I get??? Jeez. Don't you think that's a touch disproportionate?? Great way to bring people round to your way of thinking, 007.
By the way, if I was a slut, I wouldn't need to f*ck MYSELF, would I?
Candy   Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:20 am GMT
What a very disturbed person you are.
Guest   Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:33 am GMT
"Now correct me if I'm wrong"

Yes, you're very wrong, very sick, very ugly and have no life. You're a 007-man-whore in denial, with a mangina and you never get laid by women. All your man-whoring leads you to is taking it in the tailpipe from other men, hence your horribilis-anus.
Uriel   Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:55 am GMT
Ignore him, Candy. Sexual ad hominem attacks are the last refuge of a *LOSER*.
Raz Algool   Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:00 am GMT
In my own experience when I was at university I made quite a few friends who were Chinese. I do speak a Northern English dialect normally but I found that when speaking to my Chinese friends my English would be more correct. I'm not saying I slipped into RP (I can't do RP) but I began talking a kind of watered down version of my local twang. I think a lot of people do this when talking to foreigners because instinctively if you talked the same to them as you do at home with your family or in the street you know you wouldn't be understood. You end up speaking in a way which will allow you to be understoof better.
Pete   Sat Dec 03, 2005 4:26 am GMT
<<The bottom line is that you really shouldn't be criticising someone just because he speaks clear, proper, intelligible English and gets laid once in a while (or often as the case might be).>>

The thing is that every native-English speaker dislike people who prefer RP English, I don't know why. I haven't ever said that you English people should speak RP, that's like asking Peruvians to speak King Juan Carlos' Spanish, bullshit. I just say that I like RP because it's more convenient, clearer. And saying that it is subjective, well, I have to admit that it may well be. It all depends upon where you are from and your background, I mean what kind of accents you hear more often.

<<Candy, I have only two things to say to you:

1) GO FUCK YOURSELF!!! (It's because of attitudes like yours that the English language is in such a sad state - nobody wants to speak intelligibly so that they will not - God forbid - be labelled as "posh").

2) Use a screen name that doesn't make you sound like you are a some stupid little slut (although you probably are).>>

Well, I understand that some people's attitude towards English is very annoying, including myself even. But try to relax, man. And don't say her username sounds stupid. "Pete" is not better than "Candy", but we use it because those are our sodding names! dead shit!

<<And that's the response I get??? Jeez. Don't you think that's a touch disproportionate?? Great way to bring people round to your way of thinking, 007.
By the way, if I was a slut, I wouldn't need to f*ck MYSELF, would I?>>

Well, there are some people who think that they're always right. I sometimes include myself in that group, and my friend Guest007 is in it as well. Sometimes we can be a bit exagerated when hearing some kind of bullshit. Then we just explode!! And forget about f**king yourself, if you can try to get some help instead. hehe

<<What a very disturbed person you are.>>

I also hear that very often, but it never gets old.