Why do Dutch and Scandinavians speak English so well?

<<I share the same experience. When I was in Amsterdam, I try to speak Dutch but they respond me in English, I was so disappointed. >>

I once had a go at learning Dutch. I'm already proficient in German so it wasn't a huge leap to make. But, like you, when I tried to speak Dutch in Amsterdam I was answered in English. I found that very annoying, particulary as I knew for a fact that while my pronunciation may not have been spot-on, what I was saying was perfectly understandable.

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Yes, that's rude, but not unusual for the Dutch - they do that to all foreigners, even those who aren't English-speaking people including some who can't even speak English!! I've witnessed it myself.

It's really arrogant, but the Dutch are. They think they're God's gift to languages, whereas they only really speak English (as a foreign language) and not as well as they'd like to think. Some of them are ok at German, but don't expect French, Spanish let alone Cantonese or anything else.

It's amazing how they've created an image of being language gurus, simply based on fairly acceptable English. Having TV in English with subtitles means huge exposure; Dutch is also very similar to English, so they should be damn good at it. If the reverse were the case, and all TV in England was in Dutch, and it was taught for 8 years at school, the English would all speak excellent Dutch.

The Dutch people's shitty "sh" for "s" in English drives me mad, as does their intonation and over the top "r". And their arrogance.

<<They think they're God's gift to languages, whereas they only really speak English (as a foreign language) and not as well as they'd like to think. Some of them are ok at German, but don't expect French, Spanish let alone Cantonese or anything else. >>

<<It's amazing how they've created an image of being language gurus, simply based on fairly acceptable English. Having TV in English with subtitles means huge exposure; Dutch is also very similar to English, so they should be damn good at it.>>

To be fair, the Dutch tend to speak excellent English and I've heard quite a few of them speaking decent French.

But yes, their reputation as linguistic gurus is built primarily on their acquisition of English. But considering the wealth of resources available to them, ie massive exposure to the language in the popular media and many years of rigorous schooling from an early age, it's hardly surprising that they pick up English so well.

But it's not unusual in certain parts of the world, such as South Africa, to hear poor and largely uneducated people switch between 4, 5 or even 6 different languages. Now, that's far more impressive.

***You are so full of shit it's unbelievable***

Paul - have you ever considered a job over at TalkSport Radio? They are based on Hatfields, just south from the South Bank, to the east of Waterloo Bridge, and not too far from Waterloo Station, London SE1....they are always on the lookout for staff and your style of interaction and language will be more than welcomed by guys there and also by their listening audience! Give it a bash, mate! ;-)

http://new.talksport.net/shows/index.asp?mi=1

To be fair, the Dutch tend to speak excellent English and I've heard quite a few of them speaking decent French.

But yes, their reputation as linguistic gurus is built primarily on their acquisition of English. But considering the wealth of resources available to them, ie massive exposure to the language in the popular media and many years of rigorous schooling from an early age, it's hardly surprising that they pick up English so well.

But it's not unusual in certain parts of the world, such as South Africa, to hear poor and largely uneducated people switch between 4, 5 or even 6 different languages. Now, that's far more impressive.

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I agree with you more or less entirely, except that not all Dutch people speak excellent English. A few struggle (elementary), most of them can get by (pre-intermediate), and some do indeed speak it very well (upper-intermediate).

So true about other parts of the world. What's more, they don't act so f•*k••g arrogant about it as the Dutch. Actually, back to the Europeans, I find the Dutch-speaking Belgians more talented at languages than the Dutch, and they speak French too.

Once, a Dutch guy said to me "we know everything about languages here in Holland". OMG and he spoke really crappy English and a smattering of German. He was trying to impress but didn't manage. Yuck, I'd rather talk to someone modest from a country where people are less in ya face.

Don't forget the very close proximity of the Netherlands to the UK - the flight duration from London Heathrow to Amsterdam Schipol is only 55 minutes, and from airports in East Anglia such as London Luton, London Stansted and Norwich the journey time is even less - no sooner have you unclicked your belt, supped a coffee and scoffed a bakewell tart you find yourself belting up again as you see all those windmills and dykes coming into view and the traffic down below is driving on the right.

Many people in the Netherlands (and western Belgium and parts of north western France around the Nord and Pas de Calais regions) are able to switch on to some of the most prominent British TV stations - especially the BBC channels and ITV1 - and it seems many of them really enjoy the programs and if that isn't an effective means of improving their fluency in English then nothing is. I'm not sure if British people living along the English South Eastern coasts of Kent, Sussex and Essex are able to pick up at least some of the corresponding Continental TV stations I really don't know, but even if they can I can't see them tuning into them very much, if at all.

Each time I've been in the Netherlands I've always tuned into the BBC TV channels in order to keep up to date with the news among other things if I had time to spare.

Damian London E14 Wed May 20, 2009 8:02 am GMT


"...than does your average Italian or Greek or Portuguese person - or anyone from the so called Mediterranean countries - ..."

Are you racist? Do you think "mediterranean countries" are inferior ?
So much condescension!

Shut up, you, brit, don't come in our "mediterranean countries" with your bitchs and your binge drinking. We're fed up with your "patronization".

Stay in your shitty island!
Brits go home!

<<"...than does your average Italian or Greek or Portuguese person - or anyone from the so called Mediterranean countries - ..."

Are you racist? Do you think "mediterranean countries" are inferior ?
So much condescension! >>


It must be because the Mediterranean languages aren't so harsh! That's why they're so bad at it! They don't feel embarrassed to speak a harsh language! Wow, I'm on to something! Next time there is a fascist anti-Anglo government somewhere they will know who is an unpatriotic threat, all they have to do is kill the people who speak good English because anyone who speaks good English hates their own harsh language! Such people are highly likely to dissent and escape to the UK where they can speak a soft melodic language all the time! Oh my god, I just had an orgasm because I was reading this aloud, and it was just so soft and beautiful, that I like couldn't hold it any more! Shit, my keyboard is ruined!

<<"...than does your average Italian or Greek or Portuguese person - or anyone from the so called Mediterranean countries - ..."

Are you racist? Do you think "mediterranean countries" are inferior ?
So much condescension! >>

The bloke was merely stating that the average Dutch person speaks far superior English to people from Mediterranean countries. This, surely, is indisputable fact?

Attempting to explain something to someone as hate-filled as mediterranaen is surely a lost cause.

<<Attempting to explain something to someone as hate-filled as mediterranaen is surely a lost cause. >>


I'm not a Mediterranean. I'm Australian. But I am just completely and utterly miffed as to why Damian would think that people learn English because it isn't 'harsh and guttural'. Sorry, but 97% of people learn English because they are kids and they don't have a choice (little kids especially don't care about harshness), and the little kids learn it because the government decides that they should, for no reason other than MONEY, MONEY and more MONEY. Nothing else comes into the equation. Especially not 'harshness'. As for adults who learn it, most of them are doing it to increase their job prospects. And as for people who learn English because it's beautiful, well, there are probably as many of them as there are English speakers who learn Dutch.

The bloke was merely stating that the average Dutch person speaks far superior English to people from Mediterranean countries. This, surely, is indisputable fact?


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Yes and what ? "Maybe that makes Dutch people a superior race because they speak english so well, and all thoses stupid mediterranean people who don't speak good english , you know, are inferior and dumb because they don't understand that english language is so beautiful, so exceptional."
So much condescension!

Stop to think that because you speak english you're a special person or something like this. There is nothing special with english language, and in few years, it will be chinese language that everyone will have to learn.

<<Yes and what ? "Maybe that makes Dutch people a superior race because they speak english so well, and all thoses stupid mediterranean people who don't speak good english , you know, are inferior and dumb because they don't understand that english language is so beautiful, so exceptional." >>

Why bring the race element into the equation? Nobody has remotely suggested that the Dutch are a superior group of people because they speak such good English in comparison to other Europeans. Nor has anyone accused the meditarranean people of being "dumb". They just move in different linguistic circles.

<<Stop to think that because you speak english you're a special person or something like this. There is nothing special with english language, and in few years, it will be chinese language that everyone will have to learn. >>

Again, you're mounting your high horse. I don't see anyone claiming to be special because they can speak English. There's nothing intrinsically special about the English language but it has somehow establised itself as the leading language in the world (a fact, not a boast). Maybe in 100 years time Chinese will hold that lofty position, just as Latin dominated two millenia ago, but at the moment it's occupied by English.

fraz

I think he speaks about "Damian London E14 Wed May 20, 2009 8:02 am GMT" post, which is a little condescension.

Hi
By accident I came across your discussion and wanted to add something I didn´t find in your recent reasoning - it seems, that nobody considered the thought, that the dutch, being adressed, try to respond to noticing a foreigner with a mere act of polliteness, that is, trying to speak, what is considered a world language (i.e. english), which might be easily understood by most of the travellers they come across, instead of their own language (with the hard sounds)!
And here´s the european logic behind that thought: Since it will be possibly much quicker in communication, and an english answer probably better to understand for them, and it might even preserve the opposite from finding himself in a situation of embarrassment, trying to find the right words in dutch, they try to cut it short and enjoy the fact that they can exercise their own language skills at the same time.
This might be considered rude in its impatience, but I believe they would never do anything like that as an expression of a feeling of superiority.
On the contrary:
If you are talking to people from an educated background, you might find that the dutch are well aware of the fact that they have been a country of (traveling) salesmen for a good part of their history, being very dependent on good contacts with the outer world, as well as the fact that the Netherlands have underwent a history of foreign regimes, with all kinds of different languages (which might possibly explain why they have some problems with spanish and french, even if it´s subconscious).
So if you come across somebody who answers to you in english -think twice! Or adress the fact that you try to improve your dutch.
Where the dutch seem rude - with the direct way to adress what they think, you can use this knowledge and challenge your opposite with something the dutch are really proud of: Being mind-open and independent. Say what you want, and you´ll probably be surprised by their willingness to fulfill your need.

Plectrudis has some good ideas. This is a topic that comes up once in awhile at Antimoon (usually in the Languages section).

The language for communication is the language which is spoken best by the greatest number of people.

If you want to speak Dutch, you have to mention that you need or want the practice. Otherwise, you have to accept that communication (not language practice) comes first in many travel situations.

It isn't just Dutch, though. How many times have we heard that someone won't answer their attempts at French or German?

I understand this very well about the Dutch. I've been answered in German before (and English is my first language).