Cascais e uma povoaçao...
Falando em Português
Kess wrote:"...Abrem seus livros ou
Abrai vossos livros e não Abrem vossos livros."
Where on earth did you get those horrendous imperative forms of the verb "abrir" from?
The right imperativ forms of the verb "abrir" are:
1. abre
2. abra
3. abramos
4. abri
5. abram
The present indicative forms are:
1. Eu abro
2. Tu abres
3. Você/ a gente/ele/ela abre
4. Nós abrimos
5. vos abris
6. eles/elas/vocês abrem
So,the correct imperative sentence is: ABRAM seus livros, or ABRI vossos livros.
It is grammatically wrong to say: Abrem seus livros, or
Abrai vossos livros.
You are mistaking the present indicative forms with the imperative forms
Abrai vossos livros e não Abrem vossos livros."
Where on earth did you get those horrendous imperative forms of the verb "abrir" from?
The right imperativ forms of the verb "abrir" are:
1. abre
2. abra
3. abramos
4. abri
5. abram
The present indicative forms are:
1. Eu abro
2. Tu abres
3. Você/ a gente/ele/ela abre
4. Nós abrimos
5. vos abris
6. eles/elas/vocês abrem
So,the correct imperative sentence is: ABRAM seus livros, or ABRI vossos livros.
It is grammatically wrong to say: Abrem seus livros, or
Abrai vossos livros.
You are mistaking the present indicative forms with the imperative forms
"então não use VOCÊS também!
o singular de VOCÊS é VOCÊ, e não TU"
Não me parece isso seja assim tão linear, pelo menos no português de Portugal, pois "você" é usado em situações formais, enquanto que vocês é usado em situações formais e informais. Duas pessoas que eu trato por tu, se me referir a elas em conjunto trato por vocês. Outras duas que eu trate por você (por questões de formalidade), se me referir a elas no plural trato igualmente por vocês, embora em situações de grande formalidade seja mais adequado usar "os senhores/as senhoras".
"So,the correct imperative sentence is: ABRAM seus livros, or ABRI vossos livros. "
Eu acho que em Portugal se usa "abram os vossos livros".
o singular de VOCÊS é VOCÊ, e não TU"
Não me parece isso seja assim tão linear, pelo menos no português de Portugal, pois "você" é usado em situações formais, enquanto que vocês é usado em situações formais e informais. Duas pessoas que eu trato por tu, se me referir a elas em conjunto trato por vocês. Outras duas que eu trate por você (por questões de formalidade), se me referir a elas no plural trato igualmente por vocês, embora em situações de grande formalidade seja mais adequado usar "os senhores/as senhoras".
"So,the correct imperative sentence is: ABRAM seus livros, or ABRI vossos livros. "
Eu acho que em Portugal se usa "abram os vossos livros".
''Abram os vossos livros'' is not correct Portuguese
abram = 3rd person plural
vossos = 2nd person plural
I guess Portuguese is one of the least correctly spoken languages in the world,
while in Brazil they mix VOCÊ with TU (using TE with VOCÊ, instead of LHE)
in Portugal they mix VOCÊS with VÓS (using VOS, VOSSO with VOCÊS instead of LHES, SEUS)
Dou-vos a vocês. [incorect]
Dou-lhes a vocês. [correct]
Eu dou para vocês. [acceptable in Brazil since there is no pronominal mixture]
abram = 3rd person plural
vossos = 2nd person plural
I guess Portuguese is one of the least correctly spoken languages in the world,
while in Brazil they mix VOCÊ with TU (using TE with VOCÊ, instead of LHE)
in Portugal they mix VOCÊS with VÓS (using VOS, VOSSO with VOCÊS instead of LHES, SEUS)
Dou-vos a vocês. [incorect]
Dou-lhes a vocês. [correct]
Eu dou para vocês. [acceptable in Brazil since there is no pronominal mixture]
"I guess Portuguese is one of the least correctly spoken languages in the world, while in Brazil they mix VOCÊ with TU (using TE with VOCÊ, instead of LHE) in Portugal they mix VOCÊS with VÓS (using VOS, VOSSO with VOCÊS instead of LHES, SEUS) "
And in Brazil they use the present tense of the indicative mode of a verb to construct the imperative:
- Eles/Elas/vocês abrem (os) seus livros (present indicative, 3rd person plural,).
- Abrem (os) seus livros (imperative for "vocês" ).
Grammatically correct: Abram (os) seus livros.
- Você só faz besteira (present indicative, 2. person, singular).
- Faz o que eu digo (imperative for "você", 2. person singular in Brazil). Grammatically correct: Faça o que eu digo. Faz o que eu digo is the imperative form for "tu"
- Não faz isso de novo. Grammatically correct: não faça isso de novo (você), or não faças isso de novo (tu).
And in Brazil they use the present tense of the indicative mode of a verb to construct the imperative:
- Eles/Elas/vocês abrem (os) seus livros (present indicative, 3rd person plural,).
- Abrem (os) seus livros (imperative for "vocês" ).
Grammatically correct: Abram (os) seus livros.
- Você só faz besteira (present indicative, 2. person, singular).
- Faz o que eu digo (imperative for "você", 2. person singular in Brazil). Grammatically correct: Faça o que eu digo. Faz o que eu digo is the imperative form for "tu"
- Não faz isso de novo. Grammatically correct: não faça isso de novo (você), or não faças isso de novo (tu).
And in Brazil they use the present tense of the indicative mode of a verb to construct the imperative:
- Eles/Elas/vocês abrem (os) seus livros (present indicative, 3rd person plural,).
- Abrem (os) seus livros (imperative for "vocês" ).
Grammatically correct: Abram (os) seus livros.
No one would ever say ''Abrem seus livros!'' in Brazil.
You've obviously never been to Brazil,
in Brazil people normally say ''Abram os livros de vocês!'' for You (all) open your books...Get your facts straight antes de escrevinhar bobagens...
- Eles/Elas/vocês abrem (os) seus livros (present indicative, 3rd person plural,).
- Abrem (os) seus livros (imperative for "vocês" ).
Grammatically correct: Abram (os) seus livros.
No one would ever say ''Abrem seus livros!'' in Brazil.
You've obviously never been to Brazil,
in Brazil people normally say ''Abram os livros de vocês!'' for You (all) open your books...Get your facts straight antes de escrevinhar bobagens...
É possível que a substituição do Vós por Vocês tenha gerado muita confusão na cabeça das pessoas.
Acho que a grande confusão vem do facto de você e vocês terem significados um pouco diferentes em Portugal. Eu acho que diria "dou-vos a vocês" numa situação informal, e "dou-lhes a vocês" numa situação formal.
Vou tentar usar: "Dou-lhes a vocês".
Curiosidade: Como se diz, por exemplo, "Onde está o vosso carro?" com o pronome na 3ª pessoa? Será "Onde está o seu carro?"?
Acho que a grande confusão vem do facto de você e vocês terem significados um pouco diferentes em Portugal. Eu acho que diria "dou-vos a vocês" numa situação informal, e "dou-lhes a vocês" numa situação formal.
Vou tentar usar: "Dou-lhes a vocês".
Curiosidade: Como se diz, por exemplo, "Onde está o vosso carro?" com o pronome na 3ª pessoa? Será "Onde está o seu carro?"?
"No one would ever say ''Abrem seus livros!'' in Brazil.
You've obviously never been to Brazil,
in Brazil people normally say ''Abram os livros de vocês!'' for You (all) open your books"
If you read your post carefully, you will notice that you are contradicting yourself.
Anyway, it is a fact that Brazilian Portuguese speakers use the present tense of the indicative mode of a verb to construct the imperative:
- Você só faz besteira (present indicative, 2. person, singular).
- Faz o que eu digo (imperative for "você", 2. person singular in Brazil). Grammatically correct: Faça o que eu digo. Faz o que eu digo is the imperative form for "tu"
- Não faz isso de novo. Grammatically correct: não faça isso de novo (você), or não faças isso de novo (tu)
You've obviously never been to Brazil,
in Brazil people normally say ''Abram os livros de vocês!'' for You (all) open your books"
If you read your post carefully, you will notice that you are contradicting yourself.
Anyway, it is a fact that Brazilian Portuguese speakers use the present tense of the indicative mode of a verb to construct the imperative:
- Você só faz besteira (present indicative, 2. person, singular).
- Faz o que eu digo (imperative for "você", 2. person singular in Brazil). Grammatically correct: Faça o que eu digo. Faz o que eu digo is the imperative form for "tu"
- Não faz isso de novo. Grammatically correct: não faça isso de novo (você), or não faças isso de novo (tu)
In Brazil, orders can be made with
1) subjunctive: seja mais útil! (no one says: é mais útil!)
2) infinitive: passar bem!, favor avisá-los!
3) indicative: não chora!, dão licença!?
1) subjunctive: seja mais útil! (no one says: é mais útil!)
2) infinitive: passar bem!, favor avisá-los!
3) indicative: não chora!, dão licença!?
"Seja mais útil": In this case, "seja" is no subjunctive form of the verb "ser". In your example, seja is the imperativ form of "ser". This is one of the few cases speakers of Brazilian Portuguese use the imperative mode according to the established grammar.
"não chora": Quém não chora? Who is the subject? This sentence is misleading, since in Portuguese as well as most other romance languages the subject of the sentence can be omitted. The grammatically correct form of telling someone not to cry is: não chorE (você) or não chorES (tu)
The question whether the established grammar is correct or incorrect in Brazil, that is another point of discussion. However, I would like to add that it is more difficult to learn genuine Brazilian Portuguese (as people use it in everyday spoken language) than any other variant of the Portuguese language. It is not because its particular (flavour) rules deviate from the established grammar, but because of the irregularity and lack of consensus of those deviations.
"não chora": Quém não chora? Who is the subject? This sentence is misleading, since in Portuguese as well as most other romance languages the subject of the sentence can be omitted. The grammatically correct form of telling someone not to cry is: não chorE (você) or não chorES (tu)
The question whether the established grammar is correct or incorrect in Brazil, that is another point of discussion. However, I would like to add that it is more difficult to learn genuine Brazilian Portuguese (as people use it in everyday spoken language) than any other variant of the Portuguese language. It is not because its particular (flavour) rules deviate from the established grammar, but because of the irregularity and lack of consensus of those deviations.
"Seja mais útil": In this case, "seja" is no subjunctive form of the verb "ser". In your example, seja is the imperativ form of "ser". This is one of the few cases speakers of Brazilian Portuguese use the imperative mode according to the established grammar.
"não chora": Quem não chora? Who is the subject? This sentence is misleading, since in Portuguese as well as most other romance languages the subject of the sentence can be omitted. The grammatically correct form of telling someone not to cry is: não chorE (você) or não chorES (tu)
The question whether the established grammar is correct or incorrect in Brazil, that is another point of discussion. However, I would like to add that it is more difficult to learn genuine Brazilian Portuguese (as people use it in everyday spoken language) than any other variant of the Portuguese language. It is not because its particular (flavour) rules deviate from the established grammar, but because of the irregularity and lack of consensus of those deviations
"não chora": Quem não chora? Who is the subject? This sentence is misleading, since in Portuguese as well as most other romance languages the subject of the sentence can be omitted. The grammatically correct form of telling someone not to cry is: não chorE (você) or não chorES (tu)
The question whether the established grammar is correct or incorrect in Brazil, that is another point of discussion. However, I would like to add that it is more difficult to learn genuine Brazilian Portuguese (as people use it in everyday spoken language) than any other variant of the Portuguese language. It is not because its particular (flavour) rules deviate from the established grammar, but because of the irregularity and lack of consensus of those deviations
"não chora": Quém não chora? Who is the subject?
In orders, subject is not normally used, as in English!
Don't cry! (and not You don't cry!)
Não chora! (and not Tu/Você não chora!)
In orders, subject is not normally used, as in English!
Don't cry! (and not You don't cry!)
Não chora! (and not Tu/Você não chora!)
It is not because its particular (flavour) rules deviate from the established grammar, but because of the irregularity and lack of consensus of those deviations .
//The same could be said of English, why do you say ''If I were you'''but ''I wish I was there''...or why ''It's me'' but ''It's you and I''?
''English Grammar for dummies'' finds ''It is I'' the only acceptable form...
Btw,
There is a Brazilian grammar to follow, published by famous Yale University Press:
''Modern Portuguese
A Reference Grammar
* Mário A. Perini
REVIEWS CONTENTS EXCERPTS INDEX
This is the first comprehensive modern Portuguese grammar written for the English-speaking reader. The book covers in detail all the patterns of modern Portuguese as spoken and written in Brazil, focusing on those points which are especially challenging for the English-speaking student, such as the use of the subjunctive, use of the definite article, preterit vs. imperfect verb forms, prepositions, and many others. With a wealth of examples to clarify every topic and an extensive index, this indispensable grammar offers students and teachers easy access to all the information they need for in-depth study of Portuguese.
Key features of the book:
• focuses on the needs of the English-speaking reader
• incorporates the results of recent linguistic research in jargon-free language
• emphasizes modern spoken Brazilian usage
• describes current Brazilian pronunciation in detail
• devotes a separate chapter to spelling problems
• discusses trends of the modern spoken language
Mário A. Perini taught linguistics and Portuguese at major Brazilian universities for many years. More recently he has taught Portuguese as a foreign language in universities in the United States. He is now visiting professor, Department of Modern Languages, University of Mississippi at Oxford.''
https://www.powells.com/biblio?isbn=9780300091557
http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/book.asp?isbn=9780300091557
//The same could be said of English, why do you say ''If I were you'''but ''I wish I was there''...or why ''It's me'' but ''It's you and I''?
''English Grammar for dummies'' finds ''It is I'' the only acceptable form...
Btw,
There is a Brazilian grammar to follow, published by famous Yale University Press:
''Modern Portuguese
A Reference Grammar
* Mário A. Perini
REVIEWS CONTENTS EXCERPTS INDEX
This is the first comprehensive modern Portuguese grammar written for the English-speaking reader. The book covers in detail all the patterns of modern Portuguese as spoken and written in Brazil, focusing on those points which are especially challenging for the English-speaking student, such as the use of the subjunctive, use of the definite article, preterit vs. imperfect verb forms, prepositions, and many others. With a wealth of examples to clarify every topic and an extensive index, this indispensable grammar offers students and teachers easy access to all the information they need for in-depth study of Portuguese.
Key features of the book:
• focuses on the needs of the English-speaking reader
• incorporates the results of recent linguistic research in jargon-free language
• emphasizes modern spoken Brazilian usage
• describes current Brazilian pronunciation in detail
• devotes a separate chapter to spelling problems
• discusses trends of the modern spoken language
Mário A. Perini taught linguistics and Portuguese at major Brazilian universities for many years. More recently he has taught Portuguese as a foreign language in universities in the United States. He is now visiting professor, Department of Modern Languages, University of Mississippi at Oxford.''
https://www.powells.com/biblio?isbn=9780300091557
http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/book.asp?isbn=9780300091557
//The same could be said of English, why do you say ''If I were you'''but ''I wish I was there''...or why ''It's me'' but ''It's you and I''?
1. Deviations of spoken English from established English grammar are a quite diffferent issue from what we are discussing here. I could also give a list of deviations from established grammar ocurring in many other languages. But that would be silly since we are discussing the variants of the Portuguese language.
1. Deviations of spoken English from established English grammar are a quite diffferent issue from what we are discussing here. I could also give a list of deviations from established grammar ocurring in many other languages. But that would be silly since we are discussing the variants of the Portuguese language.
"In orders, subject is not normally used, as in English!"
So what! Name a language in which the subject is used in an imperative sentence.
In all languages I have learned so far the subject is normally tacit in imperative sentences. Nevertheless, that fact doesn't make my argument invalid: in Brazilian Portuguese the sentence "não chora" alone is ambiguous. It can mean:
1. She/he/you does/do not cry (present indicative mode),
2. Don't cry (imperative mode).
Only the intonation and the context allows you to differentiate which meaning is meant.
While in the other variants of the Portuguese language, the sentence "não chora" means only She/he/you does/do not cry. If you want to tell someone not to cry, you have to say "não chores" (informal) or "não chore" (formal).
So what! Name a language in which the subject is used in an imperative sentence.
In all languages I have learned so far the subject is normally tacit in imperative sentences. Nevertheless, that fact doesn't make my argument invalid: in Brazilian Portuguese the sentence "não chora" alone is ambiguous. It can mean:
1. She/he/you does/do not cry (present indicative mode),
2. Don't cry (imperative mode).
Only the intonation and the context allows you to differentiate which meaning is meant.
While in the other variants of the Portuguese language, the sentence "não chora" means only She/he/you does/do not cry. If you want to tell someone not to cry, you have to say "não chores" (informal) or "não chore" (formal).