what makes English Germanic?
the fact its speakers would like it would be romance make it a tipical Germanic language
the fact its speakers would like it would be romance make it a tipical Germanic language
what makes English Germanic?
<<the fact its speakers would like it would be romance make it a tipical Germanic language>>
Your English sucks. LOL
Your English sucks. LOL
<<Wouldn't it be practicable to simply ask language teachers, how many lessons it takes in average for a "standard scholar" of lets say French mother tongue to be able to translate written classical Latin texts of medium complexity? How difficult is it for a Frenchman to learn to speak Latin fluently? >>
For Frenchmen, learning to read Latin texts is more difficult than learning to read German texts or even to speak German. This shows that it is wrong to characterize French language as beeing "Latin". French seems to be so largely influenced by the Germanic mother tongue of the Francs, Burgundians, Allemanics, Goths and Nomans (= ancestors of the French people in North and East of France) that it has little to do with classic Latin.
For Frenchmen, learning to read Latin texts is more difficult than learning to read German texts or even to speak German. This shows that it is wrong to characterize French language as beeing "Latin". French seems to be so largely influenced by the Germanic mother tongue of the Francs, Burgundians, Allemanics, Goths and Nomans (= ancestors of the French people in North and East of France) that it has little to do with classic Latin.
TTT : « This shows that it is wrong to characterize French language as beeing "Latin". »
Désolé de te contredire, mais le français ***EST*** du latin. Comme l'italien, le portugais, le catalan, le lombard, le castillan, le provençal etc.
TTT : « French seems to be so largely influenced by the Germanic mother tongue of the Francs, Burgundians, Allemanics, Goths and Nomans (= ancestors of the French people in North and East of France) that it has little to do with classic Latin. »
Ce que tu n'as pas encore réussi à comprendre — mais ça viendra sans doute en travaillant un peu —, c'est que la langue française ***N'EXISTAIT PAS ENCORE*** à l'époque des invasions barbares. Il est donc peu probable — voire difficilement concevable — que la langue "française" ait été influencée par les peuples barbares que tu cites. C'est un peu comme si tu disais que les Australopithèques ont influencé le vieux-saxon. Juste un léger anachronisme...
Désolé de te contredire, mais le français ***EST*** du latin. Comme l'italien, le portugais, le catalan, le lombard, le castillan, le provençal etc.
TTT : « French seems to be so largely influenced by the Germanic mother tongue of the Francs, Burgundians, Allemanics, Goths and Nomans (= ancestors of the French people in North and East of France) that it has little to do with classic Latin. »
Ce que tu n'as pas encore réussi à comprendre — mais ça viendra sans doute en travaillant un peu —, c'est que la langue française ***N'EXISTAIT PAS ENCORE*** à l'époque des invasions barbares. Il est donc peu probable — voire difficilement concevable — que la langue "française" ait été influencée par les peuples barbares que tu cites. C'est un peu comme si tu disais que les Australopithèques ont influencé le vieux-saxon. Juste un léger anachronisme...
I still think that if French is considered a latin language, then English should be too (70% of english is latin - it may be more than in french I think because of the frankish influence which moved it really very far away from latin, especially in phonology)
if considering the culture I have really difficulties to think french culture to be more latin than English culture. the "french thing" looks too cold.
if considering the culture I have really difficulties to think french culture to be more latin than English culture. the "french thing" looks too cold.
>>I still think that if French is considered a latin language, then English should be too (70% of english is latin - it may be more than in french I think because of the frankish influence which moved it really very far away from latin, especially in phonology)
if considering the culture I have really difficulties to think french culture to be more latin than English culture. the "french thing" looks too cold.<<
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The grammatical structures of english are clearly germanic, for example the formations of verbs. the word order is little bit differently (in german the verb will be often the infinitive and go at the final position) but you can see in the constructions this close similarity. Dutch and english are very close, and dutch would seem to be between english and german (my opinion- I'm not linguist, but I can speak this languages).
Much of english vocabulary is also from german, but I agree that of the offical german languages, english is the least pure i.e. it has the most of other influences from latin languages. Often, if I don't know a word, structure, phrase in the langauge what I'm writing/thinking then I will transfer it from the other one for example dutch to german or english. This is very often a succes!!!! LOL!!! Of course, not always. You can use this technic for french/spanish as well.
i'm *not* linguist and I didn't study about etymology, etc.... my opinion is based on my knowledge of german, dutch, english, french, spanish not on specific study.
Anyway, it's little bit stpuid this argument, as french and english are very close related as well: the Latin languages and germanic ones have *very* much in common!!!
if considering the culture I have really difficulties to think french culture to be more latin than English culture. the "french thing" looks too cold.<<
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The grammatical structures of english are clearly germanic, for example the formations of verbs. the word order is little bit differently (in german the verb will be often the infinitive and go at the final position) but you can see in the constructions this close similarity. Dutch and english are very close, and dutch would seem to be between english and german (my opinion- I'm not linguist, but I can speak this languages).
Much of english vocabulary is also from german, but I agree that of the offical german languages, english is the least pure i.e. it has the most of other influences from latin languages. Often, if I don't know a word, structure, phrase in the langauge what I'm writing/thinking then I will transfer it from the other one for example dutch to german or english. This is very often a succes!!!! LOL!!! Of course, not always. You can use this technic for french/spanish as well.
i'm *not* linguist and I didn't study about etymology, etc.... my opinion is based on my knowledge of german, dutch, english, french, spanish not on specific study.
Anyway, it's little bit stpuid this argument, as french and english are very close related as well: the Latin languages and germanic ones have *very* much in common!!!
<<Anyway, it's little bit stpuid this argument, as french and english are very close related as well: the Latin languages and germanic ones have *very* much in common!!! >>
I fully aggree. Here are three Examples:
A phonetic index is built with the vocabulary of the application.
Ein phonetisches Verzeichnis ist aufgebaut mit dem Wortschatz der Anwendung
Un phonetique index est crée avec le vocabulaire de l'application.
This could be an entire dictionary, or a list of proper names.
Das könnte sein ein gesamtes Wörterbuch, oder eine Liste von Eigen-Namen
Ceci pourrai etre un entier dictionnaire , ou une liste de propres noms .
The searched word is then converted into phonetics and retrieved with its information, if the word is in the phonetic index.
Das gesuchte Wort ist dann umgewandelt in Phoneme und abgerufen mit seinen Informationen, wenn das Wort ist im phonetischen Verzeichnis.
Le recherché mot est alors converti en phonetiques et retiré avec son information, si le mot est dans le phonetique index .
The three sentences above consist of an English sentence and its German and French word to word translation. They are all fully intelligible and almost correct. It seem that the Germanic language English is almost the same construction as German and the "Latin" language French - only the vocabulary has to be exchanged and, in French, the position of the adjective and nouns inversed. If French, German and English are so similarly constructed, then either they are all Germanic or all Latin or what? French has a lot of Latin or Greek vocabulary, but it's construction is Germanic and very far away from Ciceros Latin....
I fully aggree. Here are three Examples:
A phonetic index is built with the vocabulary of the application.
Ein phonetisches Verzeichnis ist aufgebaut mit dem Wortschatz der Anwendung
Un phonetique index est crée avec le vocabulaire de l'application.
This could be an entire dictionary, or a list of proper names.
Das könnte sein ein gesamtes Wörterbuch, oder eine Liste von Eigen-Namen
Ceci pourrai etre un entier dictionnaire , ou une liste de propres noms .
The searched word is then converted into phonetics and retrieved with its information, if the word is in the phonetic index.
Das gesuchte Wort ist dann umgewandelt in Phoneme und abgerufen mit seinen Informationen, wenn das Wort ist im phonetischen Verzeichnis.
Le recherché mot est alors converti en phonetiques et retiré avec son information, si le mot est dans le phonetique index .
The three sentences above consist of an English sentence and its German and French word to word translation. They are all fully intelligible and almost correct. It seem that the Germanic language English is almost the same construction as German and the "Latin" language French - only the vocabulary has to be exchanged and, in French, the position of the adjective and nouns inversed. If French, German and English are so similarly constructed, then either they are all Germanic or all Latin or what? French has a lot of Latin or Greek vocabulary, but it's construction is Germanic and very far away from Ciceros Latin....
<<French has a lot of Latin or Greek vocabulary, but it's construction is Germanic and very far away from Ciceros Latin.... >>
Correct. What people often fail to realize (or refuse to accept) is the fact that French syntax is not Latin's syntax, rather german's. This is why it matches so closely with English.
I wonder what a truly Latin translation, put side by side with the others would reveal.
Correct. What people often fail to realize (or refuse to accept) is the fact that French syntax is not Latin's syntax, rather german's. This is why it matches so closely with English.
I wonder what a truly Latin translation, put side by side with the others would reveal.
"Un phonetique index est crée avec le vocabulaire de l'application"
c'est quoi un "phonétique index" ?
"Ceci pourrai etre un entier dictionnaire , ou une liste de propres noms ."
c'est quoi un "entier dictionnaire" ? Un dictionnaire peut être entier, mais un "entier dictionnaire"... quid ? peut être a-t'il quelquechose à voir avec la "positive attitude" pronée par Lorie et J.P Raffarin ?
et des "propres noms" Quesaquo ?
"Le recherché mot est alors converti en phonetiques et retiré avec son information, si le mot est dans le phonetique index . "
J'ai rien compris à cette phrase... une suite de mot sens-dessus dessous...
c'est quoi un "phonétique index" ?
"Ceci pourrai etre un entier dictionnaire , ou une liste de propres noms ."
c'est quoi un "entier dictionnaire" ? Un dictionnaire peut être entier, mais un "entier dictionnaire"... quid ? peut être a-t'il quelquechose à voir avec la "positive attitude" pronée par Lorie et J.P Raffarin ?
et des "propres noms" Quesaquo ?
"Le recherché mot est alors converti en phonetiques et retiré avec son information, si le mot est dans le phonetique index . "
J'ai rien compris à cette phrase... une suite de mot sens-dessus dessous...
<<Correct. What people often fail to realize (or refuse to accept) is the fact that French syntax is not Latin's syntax, rather german's. This is why it matches so closely with English.>>
No it doesn't. Look at these:
French: Je ne veux rien entendre de ça.
Word-for-word: I don't want nothing to hear of this
Real English: I don't want to hear about it.
French: Je le lui ai donné
Word-for-word: I it him have given
Real English: I gave it to him
French: Il y en a beaucoup.
Word-for-word: It there (some?) has a lot.
Real English: There's a lot.
French: Est-ce que je pourrais en prendre quelques-uns?
Word-for-word: Is it that I could some take a few?
Real English: Can I take some?
French: Je lui ai donné le sien et il m'a donné la vôtre.
Word-for-word: I him have given the his and he me has given the yours.
Real English: I gave him his and he gave me yours.
French: Il est né à Paris il y a vingt ans et il vit à Marseilles depuis 1998 (mille neuf-cent quatre-vingt dix-huit).
Literal English: He is born at Paris it there is twenty years and he lives at Marseilles since 1998 (one thousand nine-hundred four-twenty ten-eight).
Word-for-word: He was born in Paris twenty years ago and has lived in Marseilles since 1998.
French: Je me suis lavé ce matin, après m'avoir levé à sept heures, puis je me suis rasé.
Word-for-word: I me am washed this morning, after me to have raised at seven hours, then I me am shaved.
Real English: I washed this morning, after getting up at seven o'clock, then I shaved.
French: Nous sommes allés à l'école hier. Quand sommes arrivés, nous sommes montés au deuxième étage, mais nous sommes tombés sur les escaliers.
Word-for-word: We are gone to the school yesterday. When we are arrived, we are risen to the second floor, but we are fallen on the stairs.
Real English: We went to shcool yesterday. When we arrived, we went up to the second floor, but be fell down the stairs.
French: Je veux que tu saches lequel de ces hommes t'a volé.
Word-for-word: I want that you know the-which of these mean you has stolen.
Real English: I want you to know which of these men stole from you.
I think you get the point. Your word-for-word examples prove nothing. I could translate all the words of an English sentence into Chinese and put them in the same order, but that wouldn't prove that Chinese and English are related, would it?
French is a Romance language because it is descended from Latin. That's it. Even if 100% of the vocabulary were Germanic, it would still be a Romance language (by the way, the highest estimates are around 4%). English is Germanic because it is descended from Proto-Germanic. No matter how much borrowing occurs, THEY WILL ALWAYS STAY IN THE SAME BRANCH.
No it doesn't. Look at these:
French: Je ne veux rien entendre de ça.
Word-for-word: I don't want nothing to hear of this
Real English: I don't want to hear about it.
French: Je le lui ai donné
Word-for-word: I it him have given
Real English: I gave it to him
French: Il y en a beaucoup.
Word-for-word: It there (some?) has a lot.
Real English: There's a lot.
French: Est-ce que je pourrais en prendre quelques-uns?
Word-for-word: Is it that I could some take a few?
Real English: Can I take some?
French: Je lui ai donné le sien et il m'a donné la vôtre.
Word-for-word: I him have given the his and he me has given the yours.
Real English: I gave him his and he gave me yours.
French: Il est né à Paris il y a vingt ans et il vit à Marseilles depuis 1998 (mille neuf-cent quatre-vingt dix-huit).
Literal English: He is born at Paris it there is twenty years and he lives at Marseilles since 1998 (one thousand nine-hundred four-twenty ten-eight).
Word-for-word: He was born in Paris twenty years ago and has lived in Marseilles since 1998.
French: Je me suis lavé ce matin, après m'avoir levé à sept heures, puis je me suis rasé.
Word-for-word: I me am washed this morning, after me to have raised at seven hours, then I me am shaved.
Real English: I washed this morning, after getting up at seven o'clock, then I shaved.
French: Nous sommes allés à l'école hier. Quand sommes arrivés, nous sommes montés au deuxième étage, mais nous sommes tombés sur les escaliers.
Word-for-word: We are gone to the school yesterday. When we are arrived, we are risen to the second floor, but we are fallen on the stairs.
Real English: We went to shcool yesterday. When we arrived, we went up to the second floor, but be fell down the stairs.
French: Je veux que tu saches lequel de ces hommes t'a volé.
Word-for-word: I want that you know the-which of these mean you has stolen.
Real English: I want you to know which of these men stole from you.
I think you get the point. Your word-for-word examples prove nothing. I could translate all the words of an English sentence into Chinese and put them in the same order, but that wouldn't prove that Chinese and English are related, would it?
French is a Romance language because it is descended from Latin. That's it. Even if 100% of the vocabulary were Germanic, it would still be a Romance language (by the way, the highest estimates are around 4%). English is Germanic because it is descended from Proto-Germanic. No matter how much borrowing occurs, THEY WILL ALWAYS STAY IN THE SAME BRANCH.
Gosh Josh, no one said "word-for-word" if I'm not mistaken. If so, it wasn't me.
The differences you point out are minor to say the least. I could well say in English: "I it him gave" or "I him it gave" and everybody would know what you meant (even if it does sound extremely 'Yoda-ish'). Current English "I gave it to him" is fairly recent.
French is a descendant of Latin, yes. No argument there. However, for so long an unfair emphasis has been placed on the Latin-side of French, and the germanic qualities of French--and you know that they exist--are greatly downplayed, discouraged and overlooked. [It's as if French has been trying its damnedest to Latinize itself since the Renaissance for fear that it was becoming too much like its hated neighbor.] There isn't anything wrong with being german.
French is more properly a ROMANCE language, which means that it is a beautiful blend of Latin and Something Else (for French--Something Else is german and a little bit of celtic). It enjoys a direct heritage from Latin, especially with regard to vocabulary, but has strong germanic elements and qualities mixed in so indelibly that it has been impossible for the French to remove. These make French what it is--different from Latin.
The differences you point out are minor to say the least. I could well say in English: "I it him gave" or "I him it gave" and everybody would know what you meant (even if it does sound extremely 'Yoda-ish'). Current English "I gave it to him" is fairly recent.
French is a descendant of Latin, yes. No argument there. However, for so long an unfair emphasis has been placed on the Latin-side of French, and the germanic qualities of French--and you know that they exist--are greatly downplayed, discouraged and overlooked. [It's as if French has been trying its damnedest to Latinize itself since the Renaissance for fear that it was becoming too much like its hated neighbor.] There isn't anything wrong with being german.
French is more properly a ROMANCE language, which means that it is a beautiful blend of Latin and Something Else (for French--Something Else is german and a little bit of celtic). It enjoys a direct heritage from Latin, especially with regard to vocabulary, but has strong germanic elements and qualities mixed in so indelibly that it has been impossible for the French to remove. These make French what it is--different from Latin.
I wonder if it can be shown instead how French, English and German are ALIKE. Whether they have more similarities than differences.
it's all in how you present the material
it's all in how you present the material
>>I wonder if it can be shown instead how French, English and German are ALIKE. Whether they have more similarities than differences.
it's all in how you present the material<<
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As I wrote before, I think that they have *many* similarities, and I agree with you that it's all in how you present the material.
For example, if you would have together for a comparaison : german, english, french and japanese it would be evident the proximity of those european langauges. But, if you will more closer examine them you will see that german and english are more related that english and french.
I think that english-speakers don't like to have their language in the german group and would prefer to have their language with french and spanish etc... I like german!!! Poor german, always disliked!!
*crys* that nobody doesn't like the german language !!! :-( It's my favourite foreign language.
brennus doesn't accept german on this forum- everytime somethings are in this language he dlete them all!!!
it's all in how you present the material<<
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As I wrote before, I think that they have *many* similarities, and I agree with you that it's all in how you present the material.
For example, if you would have together for a comparaison : german, english, french and japanese it would be evident the proximity of those european langauges. But, if you will more closer examine them you will see that german and english are more related that english and french.
I think that english-speakers don't like to have their language in the german group and would prefer to have their language with french and spanish etc... I like german!!! Poor german, always disliked!!
*crys* that nobody doesn't like the german language !!! :-( It's my favourite foreign language.
brennus doesn't accept german on this forum- everytime somethings are in this language he dlete them all!!!
Hallo Pauline!!
>>brennus doesn't accept german on this forum- everytime somethings are in this language he dlete them all!!!
Tja, lassen wir uns erstmal sehen, ob der noch lebt...
Andererseits, die Leute, die das English in derselben Familie wie Fr,Sp gerne haben würden, haben überhaupt keine Ahnung von Sprachen.
Ich hoffe, Dir geht es sehr gut!!
J'espère que ça aille très bien pour toi!!
Espero que estés muy bien!!
>>brennus doesn't accept german on this forum- everytime somethings are in this language he dlete them all!!!
Tja, lassen wir uns erstmal sehen, ob der noch lebt...
Andererseits, die Leute, die das English in derselben Familie wie Fr,Sp gerne haben würden, haben überhaupt keine Ahnung von Sprachen.
Ich hoffe, Dir geht es sehr gut!!
J'espère que ça aille très bien pour toi!!
Espero que estés muy bien!!