Do races have different voices?

Damian London E14   Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:24 am GMT
Maybe the voices of the different races have certain characteristics of their own independent of accent. I agree that it is relatively easy to identify a "black" voice in many circumstances but by no means all. There are black people here in the UK who are well educated and speak in "cultured tones" in a British accent, often of the standard RP kind, but you'd never guess that they were not your bog-standard White British if all you heard was the voice.

One of the UK's most well known newscasters/media personalities is Sir Trevor Macdonald, who originated from Trinidad and Tobago, and even though he is highly educated and does speak with an English English RP accent there are certain intonations in his voice that betray his race.

Make up your own mind on Sir Trev's voice - this is his valedictory newscast on ITV before becoming a freelancer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcFLFpmc4Pg&feature=related

The Asian Far Eastern races are similar in this respect, and they, too, are quite easy to detect.

KKK? I've read all about these people in the southern regions of the United States, and they don't sound very appealing at all. Do they still exist as an organisation over there or have they been officially outlawed? It would be nice to think so as much of the American population is non-white anyway, and that includes their President. Does he "sound black" in your opinion? He does to me in a way but I'm not an expert in these matters.
O'Bruadair   Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:02 am GMT
"Ever heard of Michael Jackson?"

Michael Jackson was black?

Black folks, on average, definitely have distinctive voices, apart from accent. (ever heard Barry White?) there are always exceptions but that just proves the rule.

"KKK? I've read all about these people in the southern regions of the United States.

The KKK was many different organizations in many places at different times but most of these organizations were by no means exclusive to the "southern regions".

As far as the Klan being outlawed, the US Constitution guarantees the right of free speech and the right of peaceable assembly. As long as an organization does not advocate or instigate violence they can not be outlawed in the US.
K. T.   Tue Aug 04, 2009 3:56 am GMT
I think body size, size of the larynx and the physical resonating chambers, and the shape of the jaw and head may have something to do with this, but remember that some people can mimic very well and impersonate others to great effect.

I think at least some people can figure out how to "place" a sound so that it resonates in a different area inside the mouth.

I'm very interested in why some people can nail an accent and why others cannot.
John   Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:26 am GMT
This is actually a very interesting topic however it may come across in modern society as taboo. It would be quite easy to set up an experiment where people of different races in different countries speaking different languages could be recorded and have the sound of the voices analyzed by a computer to see if any patterns become apparent. Such an experiment could involve taking blacks who grew up speaking differn t languages such as Swedish, Dutch, Russian, German, French, Italian... and compare them with white and Asians who similarly grew up speaking the same languages. I am quite sure that some generalized differences would then become apparent as using *native speakers of different languages* would get around the whole accent/dialect/socialect issues which are what we typically use when identifying people as being black or "other".

There are many factors that go into producing the human voice such as the shape of the sinus cavity, skull, nose, throat etc.. and there are also well known and lesser widely known differences between black and white people other than just skin color. This is the reason why forensic anthropologists are able to determine the race of an individual based on skeletal remains such as a skull. http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/07/23/racial-differences-in-skull-shape/

It is highly likely that the typical differences between the Caucasoid and Negroid skulls would result in a different timbre of voice in much the same way we can tell the difference in a trumpet and a trombone even if they are playing the same notes.

I mentioned earlier that this topic is often somewhat taboo at least in American society and many people react with hostility when it it brought up, but the underlying reality of the physical differences between Caucasoids and Negroids imply that there could be some generalized differences between the voices of people of different races and there is a reason why a trained ear would not be able to pick out the differences.
John   Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:29 am GMT
Sorry my last sentence should have been "and there is probably NO reason why a trained ear would not be able to pick out the differences."
O'Bruadair   Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:36 am GMT
"........and there is probably NO reason why a trained ear would not be able to pick out the differences."

You are right.

"It would be quite easy to set up an experiment where people of different races in different countries speaking different languages could be recorded and have the sound of the voices analyzed by a computer to see if any patterns become apparent. Such an experiment could involve taking blacks who grew up speaking differn t languages such as Swedish, Dutch, Russian, German, French, Italian... and compare them with white and Asians who similarly grew up speaking the same languages. I am quite sure that some generalized differences would then become apparent as using *native speakers of different languages* would get around the whole accent/dialect/socialect issues..............."

I think you are right here also and I have an anecdotal story to back you up. I have lived in the heart of the American South all my life. Naturally about every fourth person I converse with every day is African American so I consider by ear "trained" in this respect. Back in 1996 when the Olympics were held in Atlanta I was staying at a hotel not far from there. As I was waiting for the elevator one day a group of people who were conversing in a foriegn language (I later found out it was Danish) came up behind me. I could identify one as African without turning around and without even knowing for sure what language they were using.
K. T.   Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:50 am GMT
At the recent beer summit, four people of Irish descent met for beers at the White House. Yes, Biden, Obama, Gates and Crowley are all of Irish descent. Do they sound alike at all?
Anomaly   Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:00 pm GMT
Hmm. I don't know about that. I can offer a unique perspective, however. First of all, I don't think that terms such as "black" "white", etc. are very useful, or accurate terms. Especially since they are closely associated with different cultures. However, I shall use those terms. In such a system, the term "black" could refer to many different types of people: African-Americans (defined as the unique cultural group in the US.) African-American does not mean simply someone from Africa that moved to the US. Their culture would be completely different from that of an African-American. "Black" can also refer to the offspring of a "black" person and a "white" person, as well as to their offspring. It can also refer to a lot of different things.

Anyway, so here's my background. My birth parents were both from Africa--from Kenya. However I was adopted by other people. My father is an immigrant from Korea, and my mother is from China but is completely Americanized, as she moved to the US when she was 6. My father still has a recognizable accent. I grew up completely in the US. So, what do I sound like? Do I have a trace of my father's accent? No. Not at all. I sound like any other native speaker from the US. What "race" do I sound like? Black? Asian? No. I sound "white". Can I put on a convincing African-American accent? No, and I've tried. It sounds ridiculous and fake. Do I do it often? No, I think it sounds horrible. Is my voice deeper than other people's? No,quite average. I'm a high baritone. Not a low baritone or a bass. I can change my voice a lot as well. When I was little I was first a soprano, then alto, then tenor. What do I sound like over the telephone? Well, apparently there are a lot of people that think that "Asians" are supposed to sound a certain way, and I have a Korean last name. I have even been told over the phone "You don't sound Asian, honey, you sound white!" My gosh, people are ignorant!

Another reason that I am unique is that I have experienced life as two different "races". Or to be precise: passed as two different races. When I was in Middle School, my mom, who is a hairdresser tried something different to my hair. After that I passed as Asian to almost everybody--quite a surprise to me--especially since my eyes are so large. People would ask if I was Chinese or Japanese or Korean. That actually got quite annoying after a bit. I said "No, I consider myself to be just American." In High School I had an Afro. So then people refered to me as "black", although not that often. It was actually difficult to get used to. Some people were surprised when I said I hated rap music.

Anyway, as for ones voice--it can be used and changed in so many different ways. I can make my voice high, low, loud, soft, resonant, light, whispery, breathy, hoarse, etc. I can manipulate my vowel formants when I sing. I can make myself sound like a fat person, a midget, or a chipmunk. I think that the biggest reason that people think that "races have different voices" is because different races are associated with different ethnic groups--that speak different languages and dialects. I'm sure that if I were raised in India, I would sound Indian. I think that when people claim to be able to tell different "races" apart, they mean that they can tell different dialects apart. For example, African-American Vernacular English has a large amount of African language influence in it from a long time ago. Thus people that speak AAVE sound similar to people whose first language is an African language. Thus it seems like 90% of "black" people speak a certain way. Even if you tried to do a scientific study on it, it would hardly be valid, unless they used people like me that are not really part of any ethnic group. Anyway, people tend to speak like their peers, or the people that they identify with. That also presents a problem, as ones social network would also have to be taken into account. Also there are people that can code switch between different dialects. I read that most African-Americans don't speak African-American Vernacular English, but rather speak on a continuum between that and General American English, based on who they're talking to, and how formal they are trying to speak. As for me, I speak neither AAVE or General American. I speak the local dialect of English. I cannot codeswitch at all except between registers of formality in the local dialect (which is very close to General American, since I live in Colorado, which is not exactly known for its strong accent.)
Jasper   Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:22 pm GMT
Anomaly: "I think that when people claim to be able to tell different "races" apart, they mean that they can tell different dialects apart"

Anomaly, this does not match what black people themselves have told me; it's an issue of "resonance", they insist. I have had black people tell me,"I can always tell a black person over the phone even if they talk 'white'".

Science seems to support these assertions. In terms of biology, the DNA of human species subdivided into three distinct groups: Caucasoid, Negroid, and Mongoloid. Forensic investigators can now detect the race of a cadaver by testing this DNA.

The bone structure is different, too. If you were to take a look at a Negroid skull, you would see what the issue is. Perhaps you really are an anomaly, born with an unusual-shaped Negroid skull.
Anomaly   Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:38 pm GMT
>> Anomaly, this does not match what black people themselves have told me; it's an issue of "resonance", they insist. I have had black people tell me,"I can always tell a black person over the phone even if they talk 'white'" <<

They can probably hear that the other person is code-switching to something resembling General American but not quite there. As for resonance, what exactly do you mean by that? Vowel formant frequencies? Or perhaps some supersegmental features?

>> The bone structure is different, too. If you were to take a look a a Negroid skull, you would see what the issue is <<

Does that really affect the way that people talk though in a salient way? I highly doubt it. Considering the diverse way that people talk based on things like emotional states, for example, and the fact that the tongue can be positioned in different ways to create different formant frequencies, I would think that that would trump any differences in "skull shape". As for me, I have never been called anything other than "white" on the phone (unless they know my last name), even when speaking to people that sound like they are speaking AAVE--although I have a hard time telling AAVE and Southern American English apart, but I know there's a difference. Also I've recorded myself on the internet once, a long time ago (although not on this forum, unfortunately). Most of the people thought I was from California though. All of them guessed I was of Caucasian descent.
K. T.   Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:39 pm GMT
My brother speaks English, but his resonance and even the timbre of his voice sounds like some people of my father's general ethnic background.
I was startled by this. I heard the leader of another country speak and he sounded just like "David" except that he was speaking in another language. Since then, I have heard another foreign speaker who also has a similar cadence to his speaking and a similar timbre. I have only heard this in another cousin, not other Americans.

I have heard this with an Italian-American friend as well. His way of speaking was like an Italian even in English. Perhaps he copied his father's tonal patterns into English.
anomaly   Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:04 pm GMT
Yes that's interesting. I wonder how much parents influence our speech.
Jasper   Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:23 pm GMT
"They can probably hear that the other person is code-switching to something resembling General American but not quite there. As for resonance, what exactly do you mean by that? Vowel formant frequencies? Or perhaps some supersegmental features?"

Anomaly, I can only guess, because I myself can't tell the difference. I would hypothesize that vowel (and consonant) production to a large extent resonates through the nasal cavity, which is markedly larger in Negroid skulls than in Caucasoid skulls. It's my understanding, too, that the jawbone is markedly protruded on a Negroid skull, which in addition would presumably have an effect.

Anomaly, I myself can't hear these differences in resonance—or perhaps I don't know what to listen for—but quite a few people have told me this, so I have little reason not to believe them.
Anomaly   Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:52 pm GMT
>> Anomaly, I myself can't hear these differences in resonance—or perhaps I don't know what to listen for—but quite a few people have told me this, so I have little reason not to believe them <<

Do those same people tell you that people from Chicago have a "nasal sounding voice", even though what they hear is the raising or diphthongization of /æ/, as well as the other features of the Northern cities vowel shift, which have nothing to do with nasality at all? People are notoriously bad at analyzing their speech. Also, most people have as much of an idea of what "resonance" is as they have of things like vowel length. I think what it mainly has to do with is that "races" are so strongly linked to ethnic groups, that people unfortunately use them interchangeably. And 90% of the time it works. A better question would be "Do ethnic groups/subcultures speak in different ways?", to which the answer is usually yes. Wouldn't you think that a kid with European parents who was raised by, and identified with African-American English would end up speaking AAVE?

If it really had to do with "race", which I don't even think is a valid term, then there would be no exceptions. People would easily be able to tell over the phone for example. But that is not the case. One thing you can tell though, fairly often, is the vocal range of the person, just by listening to them talk, because people normally speak almost at the very bottom of their range. However people vary their pitch a lot, especially for emphasis, and some people deliberately speak higher or lower. Also, I read that basses tend to speak closer to the lower middle part of their range.
Xie   Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:04 pm GMT
Voice and accent together do make huge differences. Generally, I think Chinese people have very soft voices... well, except those communist officials who always speak at an excessively loud voice, and weird women who always speak at a very high pitch. So many German girls speak at such a low pitch... if I weren't male, my pitch would even be higher than theirs.

I must say voice, a part of physical attributes, may have well contributed to the image of people, or a race if you call it. Then I can imagine why somebody can say Chinese girls, for example, look so delicate and thus feminine and attractive. At least they don't speak with a low pitch, with a headstrong character, and without much confidence. The unfortunate Chinese guys would be given completely different treatment for the same attributes.