Antimoon method and flashcards

Xie   Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:53 am GMT
Comprehensible input
I just have some doubts about the antimoon method in relation to comprehensible input.

Flashcard
My doubts
The antimoon method, and also the allthejapaneseallthetime (AJATT) method, emphasizes the use of flashcards. But isn’t it very mundane and tiring to make so many flashcards just for the sake of remembering the content? If I miss a grammar rule or a word, I can simply check the source once again. If I always miss it, probably it’s just a matter of time before I can finally remember it. Personally, not to mention/not to say, for example, stroke me as particularly annoying because I forgot them all the time. Theoretically, I’d agree that I could have tried Anki or something similar to finish them. But maybe because I was too lazy and didn’t seem to understand the whole mechanism, the flashcards didn’t work well because there were just too few of them and I found it too troublesome to use.

Issues
First, you need to type it explicitly but very often you already remember it before you finish typing.

Second, if you were me running into not to mention/not to say, whether you had flashcards or not, you’d make a mistake for 50 times before you get them right. I did get them wrong so frequently until I finally memorized the meanings for good. If I’m wrong anyway so frequently, I doubt whether flashcards can help me correct my memory problem.

Third, you also need to understand the mechanism very well and maintain the learning system. How possible is it?

Fourth, using flashcards sounds a very futile idea to me. And even more so when AJATT himself speaks of 10,000 sentences. I know this is just a rough estimate indicating the very extensiveness and intensity of the system, but how possible is it at all to enter thousands of items into the same system? It does sound to me more like drudgery when you have to type that much just for learning.

Writing
AJATT also mentioned WRITING the sentences down on paper by hand. I guess this is for some kind of kinetic help with memory. This seems trivial, but I’d agree that doing so is still better than purely writing out lessons (of, say, textbooks) and forgetting the content afterward, which was my case for language notebooks. I simply had no time to review old content of textbooks. And textbooks naturally contain all kinds of made-up sentences without genuine, creative contexts.

This leads me to another two issues. One, is it all that necessary to enter individual sentences into the SRS and then review repeatedly? Suppose you put an Assimil lesson into the SRS, let’s say it has 13 sentences. If you put them separately into the SRS, you run into the danger of mutilating the lesson into 13 sentences with half of them being meaningless. Why? Because some aren’t even complete sentences (with a period, that is). Some are purely useless that doesn’t deserve any review, such as the phrase Hello for the whole first sentence. In those cases, it’s of course more sensible to put them into complete sentences and take ONLY sentences I think to be worth reviewing in the future.

Maintenance
How to keep your deck orderly? Do you actually keep something like
#13: And I’m not going to do this anymore! Bye! (Lesson 37, Antimoon Englisc with ease)
this, adding where it comes from? This looks more orderly with the lesson number and the source name, but it adds to your typing work.

General issues
I know this is a very old topic and past discussions have exhausted pretty much of it. However, I’m still wondering about several things, such as just how you grade your performance in an SRS, i.e. from 0 mark to 5 marks.
And still, I find it most troublesome to type so much.

The way of reading Latin
As I wrote earlier in one of the threads buried down in antimoon, there was once a very mundane way of learning Latin through reading. This isn’t a “method” per se as in the AJATT method or the antimoon. It isn’t systematic, either:

So now, I want to learn Latin. I’ll first find all the tools necessary, i.e. a good dictionary, some readers, a starting textbook, a grammar book.
After some textbook and grammar lessons, like how Barry Farber did languages as he wrote in his own book, you go to read. When you read, of course it’s good to have known some words/a lot of words even before you read a particular text. But, anyway, just start reading. If you don’t understand something, just read the dictionary. You may end up having to rely on the dictionary for 3 out of 4 words in the same Latin text. And when you read, you don’t need to copy anything. This isn’t like writing notes in university lectures. The text won’t change and doesn’t need any interpretation (one important fact is you don’t normally need to interpret. This isn’t a literature course, either. Usually, the text could be understood literally).

My purpose of mentioning this is to say it may run against the antimoon/AJATT method somehow, and particularly the SRS. First, if I’m writing flashcards, probably (I don’t know if this is necessary as a matter of fact) I should be writing what is means.

#13: And I’m not going to do this anymore! Bye! (Lesson 37, Antimoon Englisc with ease)
Anymore: any more
If you do not do something or something does not happen any more, you have stopped doing it or it does not now happen
I don't do yoga any more.
(courtesy of CALD)

If you put a card like this, then this card becomes at least 4 lines. If your Anki/Mnemosyne/whatever’s screen is small, you may even end up reading 6 lines to review the same card, and for a single word “anymore”. Not to mention if you also want to learn the pronunciation of this word, which is the stress being put at more instead of any. Such a card sounds infinitely long. It’s still ok to have phonetics on the cards, but… dictionary entries are just too long usually to be there.

Second, the above way of reading doesn’t involve writing. In fact, why should I write? You may say this is a matter of taste, and it is. People may like to practice their Chinese or Japanese writing, but as a Chinese speaker myself I don’t even need to practice Japanese, though I don’t strictly know any Japanese at all. I can learn the kana within hours, given previous experiences.
Achab   Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:06 am GMT
In case someone may not be aware of AJATT (All Japanese All The Time), I think you should give it a peek.

It's a website presenting a strategy to learn Japanese very similar, but not totally identical, to the Antimoon Method of acquiring English. Well, the guy behind AJATT makes it clear that his stepping stone to creating his own Antimoonesque blueprint was getting to know Antimoon itself.

The most important similarity lies in the fact that both workflows are strongly input-centered.

The most striking deviation of AJATT from Antimoon ls the emphasis of the former on listening to Japanese continuously, even though you're not grasping much of what you're exposing yourself to, contrasted with the importance that the latter gives to, um, the comprehensibless, it there's actually such a word, of your language intake.

Even though AJATT is obviously geared towards learners of Japanese, it contains a galore of articles and ideas that are extremely useful to learners of any other language.

Take a look at AJATT here:

www.alljapaneseallthetime.com

With every good wish,

Achab
Robin Michael   Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:54 am GMT
There seems to be a huge contrast in antimoon between comments and topics where people have given a lot of thought to what they want to say; and other topics where it seems very much like being in the school playground with people hurling insults at each other.

I have been accused of promoting Livemocha.com in the past. I must confess that I am a native speaker who has largely given up learning another language. However I feel that Livemocha has something to offer. One thing that it is able to offer is the chance to communicate. Surely language, at the end of the day, is about communication.

Native English speakers often do not need to learn a foreign language in order to communicate abroad, which is why British people are so poor at learning foreign languages. However on my recent trip to Poland there were occasions when the conversation did not revolve around me, and people spoke in Polish. On those occasions I listened and I tried to understand what people were saying. I was fortunate because there were also some German people present and the conversation was being translated from Polish to German. I found that I could understand some of the German content.
.   Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:16 am GMT
Typing

You will find when typing English that various letters always cluster together. So a tip for learning how to type in English is to use a Typing Tutor. Mavis being the most obvious example.

http://download.cnet.com/Mavis-Beacon-Teaches-Typing-17-Deluxe/3000-2051_4-10441764.html


If you are really serious you probably have to buy a UK or USA keyboard and set Microsoft Office to UK or US English.



Back to my theme: You will find certain letters always go together - for example - 'ing' 'gth' etc

So using the rather laborious Typing Tutor method you will find that you don't make elementary mistakes. I have been communicating with a Chinese woman in Livemocha and she makes mistakes that a European would not. I think some practice with a typing tutor would help her get a feel for which letters go together.

I also think that using Microsoft Office to Spell and Grammar Check is a good idea. I often have a feeling when a word is incorrectly spelt. In the past I would have thought of another word that I can use. But using a spell checker I am simply told the correct spelling. The only think against it, is that it sometimes corrects spelling automatically but at least what you write is comprehensible.


Labourious
- this is a word that I was struggling with. We will see if I have spelt it correctly.

I used to have difficulty with spelling 'pronunciation' because it is spelt in a way that is different to the way I used to say it. I know say the word in a way that is closer to how it is spelt.

There are books and web pages on common spelling mistakes among native speakers.


Grammar Check

"Mavis being the most obvious example."

A fragment and not a sentence.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Microsoft Explanation

Fragment
If the marked words are an incomplete thought, consider developing this thought into a complete sentence by adding a subject or a verb or combining this text with another sentence.

Instead of: Meteors the entire night.

Consider: We watched meteors the entire night.

Instead of: Because the teacher said to.

Consider: You have to, because the teacher said to.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

labourious - this is a word that I was struggling with. We will see if I have spelt it correctly.

Should be: laborious
Xie   Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:40 pm GMT
Oh people, please stick to my original topic. I'm asking about how to make good flashcards good for learning any language, not what AJATT site is, not how the situation of an Anglophone is, and not about word definitions.
Robin Michael   Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:41 pm GMT
Dear Xie

You accuse people of deviating from your original topic, but it is not entirely clear what your original topic is. That is one of the problems of writing too much.

First of all this is a Forum about the English language.


Your opening sentence:

"Comprehensible input
I just have some doubts about the antimoon method in relation to comprehensible input. "


What are you talking about? It is far from clear!

Why not start a topic on the subject of Flashcards. As far as I am aware the antimoon method does not use Flash cards. The antimoon method is a way of jogging people's memory using a computer program.
.   Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:46 pm GMT
This sentence is an example of a sentence that does not make sense and requires some kind of prior knowledge.


"One, is it all that necessary to enter individual sentences into the SRS "


What is the SRS?

What does SRS stand for?

The convention for using abbreviations is to explain the abbreviation before using it as an abbreviation.
.   Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:49 pm GMT
I overlooked an earlier spelling mistake.

However this sentence is grammatically incorrect.

"And even more so when AJATT himself speaks of 10,000 sentences."


You are referring to 'AJATT' as if 'AJATT' was a person. But AJATT is a technique.
.   Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:55 pm GMT
"Personally, not to mention/not to say, for example, stroke me as particularly annoying because I forgot them all the time."


I will paste this sentence into Microsoft Word.

Microsoft Word did not reveal any spelling or grammatical errors. But believe me 'stroke' is incorrect. It should be: 'struck me as particularly annoying'.


That could be a simple mistake of a type that I make frequently. Alternatively it could reveal problems in using English - in other words - a problem of understanding - of grammar.
Robin Michael   Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:00 pm GMT
My suggestion as an alternative to Antimoon and Flash Cards is that you try a Typing Tutor and that you use Microsoft Word with a UK or USA keyboard.


In someways this is similar to the AJATT method in which you immerse yourself in a foreign language culture.


I do not want to put you off contributing to Antimoon. However I would suggest that you write shorter and more concise Topics. Otherwise people do not know what it is that you are trying to say.
SRS   Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:25 pm GMT
I'm learning English with the Antimoon method and SRS, but honestly, I can't be bothered reading such a long, messy post. Why don't you try and ask a thing at a time? It might be easier.
Reaper   Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:30 pm GMT
<<
I do not want to put you off contributing to Antimoon. However I would suggest that you write shorter and more concise Topics. Otherwise people do not know what it is that you are trying to say. >>


And I suggest to you that you write shorter and more concise Answers. Otherwise people don't know what it is that your trying to say.
Johnny   Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:32 pm GMT
Xie,
I have been using flash cards in Mnemosyne, and I've faced several problems.

1) I never feel like creating a new, clear, good flash card. Creating a good flash card requires some effort if you want it to be efficient and good (see the following points)

2) I never feel like reviewing the cards, or I forget to do so, and the result is that as soon as I skip a week or so, I find that there are too many flash cards to review. I can't keep pace with the software.

3) The definition in the flash card must be as simple as possible and most details should be left out. This means it's too hard and impractical to try to remember exact definitions. It's best to just remember the general meaning of a word, and all the rest (details, how to use it, etc) will be learned later, over time, in context.

4) It's difficult to choose what to include in a flashcard and what to leave out. Since you have to keep it simple, you need to leave out as much as you can, and only include the main meaning: secondary meanings will be understood.

5) Making a flashcard for a word you see often and you are likely to learn quickly is useless. You should only make flashcards for the words you come across and
- you feel they might be useful
- you feel you keep seeing them but you can never remember the meaning





One flash cards just consist of a word (ex: ambush (noun)) and when I see the word I try to remember the meaning, which I then check (hidden definition plus one or two short examples).

Flashcards (in Mnemosyne or similar software) DO WORK, and they are useful, BUT it turns out they take TOO MUCH TIME. It's too complicated to be the perfect way to learn vocabulary. That's my opinion.

By chance, since sometimes wrote down some words I wanted to learn on a piece of paper, I started to think that maybe methods like "tree graphs" or "contextual lists" might even work better. Such methods basically allow to see several words which are "contextually close" all at the same time. So for example you learn "grumpy" because you added it next to "grouchy", or you remember what a skunk is because you had written "it stinks" next to it.

In conclusion, I am starting to believe that instead of using flashcards, we could just save time and just use a learners dictionary that lets you double-click a word and gives you the meaning in a pop-up. You surf the web and read whatever you want, you double-click on the words you are more interested in, or that you think you might have forgotten, and just check... And all this might be more efficient than creating flashcards.

I have trouble learning new vocabulary, so I don't know what I'm going to do. I'll probably experiment with new methods.
K. T.   Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:42 am GMT
I used to use the old Japanese-style cards on a ring. Of course, I didn't really review them much.

I use the memo in my electronic dictionary and I take my dictionary with me when I think I may have time to review some words.

Just say the words aloud and look at them once a week or so until you own them.

Make your own sentences.
______________________________________________________
Xie   Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:02 pm GMT
Sorry for my problems:

>>Why not start a topic on the subject of Flashcards. As far as I am aware the antimoon method does not use Flash cards. The antimoon method is a way of jogging people's memory using a computer program. <<

Sometimes I was doing too many things that I didn't even modify the content... it was unlike in Germany where I could focus on anything at one time. I was just too busy.

>>And I suggest to you that you write shorter and more concise Answers. Otherwise people don't know what it is that your trying to say. <<

Well, the busier I am, the sloppier I write. Anyway, now, now, it's just about how to make good flashcards. I'm yet to know. I was actually turned off a few times because it appeared too boring. I just didn't know how to do it right.