Antimoon method and flashcards

Xie   Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:28 pm GMT
>>Xie,
I have been using flash cards in Mnemosyne, and I've faced several problems. [...]

Thx, Johnny. I see your points. I had the same problems too. All in all, I still find entering flashcards itself to be the most troublesome. Let's say I'm learning English. Whether I use Collins or Cambridge (software) to learn English words, very often it's not worth the time to copy dictionary entries into a flashcard and start reviewing from time to time. By common sense, the worst danger is to review just for the sake of it, which is quite silly.

Once I saw a discussion, where one person said:
"In using flashcards, why should you bother with something you don't have any use for?" with a sly smile. Something like this.

>>3) The definition in the flash card must be as simple as possible and most details should be left out. This means it's too hard and impractical to try to remember exact definitions. [...]

4) It's difficult to choose what to include in a flashcard and what to leave out. Since you have to keep it simple, you need to leave out as much as you can, and only include the main meaning: secondary meanings will be understood.

5) Making a flashcard for a word you see often and you are likely to learn quickly is useless. You should only make flashcards for the words you come across and
- you feel they might be useful
- you feel you keep seeing them but you can never remember the meaning <<

I can't skip too much of your post. The above just explains exactly what to include and what not to. In practice, it's a matter of practice how you can do the things you said above right. But I didn't find this easy, either. I find it, therefore, not a very good idea. This idea of using flashcards sounds like a hideous, overly complicated mechanism to me. If you can read a textbook/a text/an audiobook simply by reading it, why should you need this sophisticated mechanism to help you learn vocab? This is my main complaint, in fact.

Having that said, certain things are probably very good material for flashcards. Such as if you want to remember the names of all countries in the world in English, such flashcards are VERY useful. But then, let's return to the logic:

"In using flashcards, why should you bother with something you don't have any use for?"

I don't even find it useful to remember many countries even in Chinese. At large, I only remember more famous/significant/larger countries. I can't recall any countries in Oceania except larger ones.

==

I'm yet to understand the whole AJATT system. (Note: When I say AJATT, it's usually the method, not the site or the person. But all of them just refer to the same ideas in the method.) In fact, if you exclude Kanji/Hanzi (only valid for Japanese and Chinese), I think the whole matter of learning a language, in AJATT's terms, is like:

- Flashcards are for memorizing, usually anything useful/you want. I won't argue about this. (Kanji/Hanzi is apparently included too.)
- Intensity. But this is not flashcards, just about how intense AJATT himself learned Japanese.

Personally, I went through both English and German grammar in different ways. I spent far more time without flashcards than the AJATT guy for Japanese who used flashcards. His ideas of acquisition are at large valid. I do agree that I could have shortened my learning of German grammar somehow if I had used flashcards correctly. But since I'm already done with the grammar book, I can't tell how you learn grammar with flashcards.

So, for me now, even with German, not to mention English, if I am to make good flashcards, I won't for sure do grammar in this way. I'll be using flashcards only for vocab, for example.
Xie   Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:51 pm GMT
My past experiences and faults:

OK, so, everybody is asking me to improve my writing. I'll just cut the crap. Here is a short post.

Last year, my English was slightly worse than now, my German was far less competent, and my French was simply kind of crammed without much sticking to my head. I did flashcards for all of them, and it didn't work. Why? First, when I copied dictionary entries, I made them too long, sort of blocking the screen. Anyway, it was simply too large and long. Instead, you can simply search the same entry and read again. Second, I also copied unnecessary details like how a word is read, just for English and French words. Both are famous for a lot of irregular spelling, but I think learning patterns is better than exceptions. Third, entering cards took too much time and made the whole matter like drudgery.

As the cliché goes, it may well be a matter of personal taste. AJATT might well have found it efficient to use flashcards to learn grammar (and, as he claimed later on, learning grammar AFTER some exposure in Japanese instead of no grammar at all). I didn't. I learned German grammar largely through doing exercises, attending class (at university). I didn't really read a lot of German (i.e. exposure) to feel the grammar, but even before I went to Germany, I knew that I knew more grammar than the language itself. This wasn't a very pleasant situation, but I exactly used grammar as a basis to start talking. In a way, while I didn't use flashcards, I already did the job of flashcards by reading similar (grammar) books again and again. I didn't terribly like grammar and had no specific learning goals. I didn't read a very thick grammar book, either. Instead, as I learned more, I looked more meanings in grammar than strictly dealt with every single rule, even in a smaller grammar book.

I think the above will also be true for learning vocab.
Xie   Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:03 pm GMT
Sorry, one more thing.

Acquisition in reading

This isn't strictly about flashcards. However, as I see it, there are a lot of instances in reading where you don't need flashcards. Or I can say you'll naturally use mental flashcards only. The more you read, the more words you can remember. You always see unknown words especially in <<first>> trying to read a foreign language, of course! But as exposure increases, words will often reveal their meanings. There might be words that still baffle you after a lot of reading. In that case, you can freely consult a dictionary and it's no pain. Use electronic flashcards when necessary.

All in all, one biggest fault I had was I was too impatient to read. Today I was reading Französisch ohne Mühe (yes, in German). So I know how Assimil works, so I know the content. So today I tried to read about the Assimil method, now in German, and while I don't know 10% of the words, most words I haven't seen before reveal their meanings automatically.

I'm sorry that I wrote too much in the first post. I wrongly put the part about Latin, which should been put in parallel in THIS post. Although I didn't learn much written language back in Germany, as time passed, I can actually read only in German more easily. It's common sense that READING helps (helps acquisition), but I only know this fact after having actually done it and without thinking consciously about it.
Johnny   Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:21 pm GMT
You know, learning a language basically boils down to a lot of exposure and repetition. Now, this problem with flashcards might boil down to:

If there is enough material (internet, dictionaries, books) to have enough natural exposure and allow for repetition, is it really worth it to spend time and energy creating an artificial method for exposure and repetition? (flash cards)

I have been using Mnemosyne, but in the next few months I think I'm going to try some different approaches, because I am almost convinced that using flash cards is not the key, but only part of the key to improving vocabulary. I'm not sure. I'll let you guys know.
Achab   Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:30 pm GMT
Xie,

I remember a website I once browsed, it was by a guy of Chinese descent living in the USA. That website, it had a few articles on the English language, one of which making comparisons between a number of dictionaries. The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language emerged as the "winner."

While I lost the URL of the website, its content made a bit of an impression on me. Interesting stuff.

Now, is it, or was it, your website?

With every good wish,

Achab
Xie   Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:32 pm GMT
>>If there is enough material (internet, dictionaries, books) to have enough natural exposure and allow for repetition, is it really worth it to spend time and energy creating an artificial method for exposure and repetition? (flash cards)<<

Given that I'm living in one of the busiest cities in the world, I can tell even as an undergraduate that I can't possibly maintain the kind of routines that AJATT managed to keep back in Utah (as I remember, where he studied). Other than the mechanism and typing, clearly flashcards aren't really for me. Or perhaps I can't be so sure like you. I'll first start reading peacefully until I write you guys about my findings.

>>Now, is it, or was it, your website?<<

No, I've never been in the US at all.
Achab   Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:48 pm GMT
Xie,

I looked around and tried to locate the website I was thinking about. Well, I succeded:

http://xahlee.org

And here's the article I mentioned, the one reviewing a few dictionaries:

http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/bangu/dict_review.html

Some kind of similarity between your name and the name of that website's editor, the fact that both of you are Chinese... Go figure, that's a combination of two things that rang a bell with me.

All's well that ends well,

Achab
K. T.   Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:03 pm GMT
Don't get obsessed with becoming an Anglophone. Work regularly on your vocabulary in German and English, but take breaks to keep your mind clear.

I always want a great accent in the language I'm learning and I want to be proficient, but I don't want to "become" Japanese, for example. It is enough to understand the ways that some cultures think about things.

A serious, but relaxed approach works for me. I'm serious about the languages I study (I don't pick one up and throw it out after studying it for six months, for example.), but I don't worry if I don't understand something one day. I can look for the answer the next day.

If you read enough or listen enough you will hear the "new" vocabulary you encounter if the vocabulary is common enough. It depends on the register of language. If you read more difficult magazines in German or English, you will get a better vocabulary, but if you hang out with slackers you may never use the vocabulary.
Robin Michael   Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:33 pm GMT
I would be interested in your comments on Livemocha.com

Livemocha uses Flash cards but it also has other aspects. I started the TOEFL course but I got rather fed up with it. I got the impression that it was not very well put together. There is something very annoying about a computer program that insists the wrong answer is right or a computer program that asks nonsensical poorly thought out questions.

I have also started learning a language - Polish. I had a problem that you might appreciate. The Flash Cards start off with whole words and their English equivalent. In Polish the alphabet is different from English.

I think that it would help to first learn the sounds of the letters before starting with words. I believe that if you understand how the sounds go with the letters, in Polish, then the words become relatively easy to pronounce.
Guest   Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:52 pm GMT
I'm so proud of myself right now. I've conquered my Temper. I'm NOT going to comment Robin's Revelation.
Xie   Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:41 am GMT
http://antimoon.com/forum/p215533.htm#215533

follow-up as my replies. I'll get back to flashcards if you like.
Robin Michael   Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:48 pm GMT
To the anonymous 'Guest'.


You have commented on Robin's revelation.


I would not like to offend someone like Tom*. However I am genuinely interested in comments on Livemocha. I think that it is quite reasonable question to ask. I asked the question in a Topic on Flashcards. Livemocha uses Flashcards.

http://www.antimoon.com/forum/p215559.htm#215559