Better English: Brits or Americans

Edward Teach   Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:02 pm GMT
I think thats because loudness and stupidity are considered to be admirable qualities these days.

It no longer matters how logical or well founded your thoughts are.

Just as long as you are an opinionated, loud-mouth fanatic.

Actually on second thoughts, it seems that the only thing that is considered 'wrong' these days is 'being judgemental' also known as 'having standards'.
Trimac20   Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:25 am GMT
'blanc' was me, lol. Put it in the wrong box.
Another Guest   Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:53 pm GMT
It seems to me that when a dialect is spoken by only 3% of Britons, and Britons make up only a small portion of the English-speaking world, it's rather silly to say that it should be put on the same footing as GAE.
O'Bruadair   Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:43 am GMT
"is the way English should be spoken"

Teach says:

"Based on what exactly?
Because you speak it and everyone should be like you?

"In my career as an English teacher I have found that Americans are far more likely to insist that their version of English is the 'correct' one. English people are ready to accept that there are 2 versions of English."

I don't know about "better". "Better" is a subjective term open to debate. But if we are talking "correct" here don't all other English speakers have to defer to the English themselves? Hell, if I wanted to learn correct Navajo I would defer to the Navajos!

And BTW, the reactions to this from my fellow Americans leaves no doubt in my mind why many non-Americans consider us arrogant and boorish!
Wintereis   Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:35 am GMT
<<I don't know about "better". "Better" is a subjective term open to debate. But if we are talking "correct" here don't all other English speakers have to defer to the English themselves? Hell, if I wanted to learn correct Navajo I would defer to the Navajos!>>

O'Bruadair: This is a very ill conceived notion. First, one cannot really defer to the English as if the people of England speak a single dialect. There are many, many different dialects in England. So, which one should we give preference to? Several English dialects stray far from established, academic standards of English while RP is an artificial dialect all together.

Secondly, there are not multiple dialects of Navajo to consider. The language is dying despite attempts to keep it alive, and there are not enough fluent speakers of the language to allow for dispersion. Furthermore, you are comparing apples to oranges. Learning another language is far different than learning a different dialect of the same language.

Really, this whole thread is pointless and asinine, as there is neither a better nor a correct dialect of English. Each has come about through an evolutionary process with a common root. That root form of English is no longer in existence. So, there is nothing to defer to. Claiming that there is a correct dialect of English is like claiming that there is a correct type of finch. Each dialect has developed to suit the communicative needs of a particular group.
Protector of Children   Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:05 am GMT
Wintereis, such connotations on a language site are inappropriate! There might be children here...
Charles   Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:11 am GMT
<Claiming that there is a correct dialect of English is like claiming that there is a correct type of finch.>

In fact, in taxonomy, you designate a type species to indicate the typical characteristics of the genus, a type genus for the family, and so on upwards.

For example, Fringilla is the type genus in Fringillidae, and F. coelebs (chaffinch) is the type species in Fringilla.

Effectively this has already happened with English, except that there are two type dialects: standard British and standard American.

Nothing to do with deference or correctness in some absolute sense. Just pragmatic evolution in action.
Uriel   Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:18 pm GMT
<<Like when I think American I think of a bitchy teenage girl saying 'eww, that is so gross!' or 'get off of me!' Those sort of cliched phrases, and the cliched cookie-cutter expressions of intonation - ugh!>>

So basically you're mad at us for using our own slang and not yours?
Damian in Edinburgh   Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:22 pm GMT
In our office we have received festive cards from all over the world and for the most part all of them include the word "Christmas" in the greeting, either in English or in other languages - except for all those which had come from the United States. Without exception all of the American cards have the greeting "Happy Holiday" or "Happy Holidays".

This is so puzzling, not to mention just a tad irritating in a way, but they are of course free to do just as they wish on their own cards, and only this morning on a BBC Radio 4 program an American correspondent from over there said "I would like to say Happy Holidays to all my British friends over in the UK and to all those to whom it applies - Happy Hanukkah!" How is is that this American guy shied away from directly using the name of the Christian festival but didn't hesitate to refer to the Jewish fesival by name?

It really does sound like double standards gone haywire.

If the mere mention of Christmas in America is taken as some kind of slight directed at other faiths in that multi cultural country then why is it that it's not considered "wrong" to name all non-Christian festivals?

Americans need a little Christmas now......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zG0OZGoKRAY

I mentioned my maternal grandparents living in Herefordshire, England....17 miles from Gloucester, which has a magnificent 11th century cathedral - of the Three Choirs Festival cathedrals, the other two being those at Worcester and Hereford. I have been to Gloucester Cathedral several times, and it contains the tomb of England's King Edward II who led a very colourful life, and ultimately a very tragic one.

He was the son of Edward I, the English king who conquered Wales, and who was responsible for all those magnifiecnt castles dotted along the entire coast of Wales, especially in North Wales - Flint, Rhuddlan, Conwy, Caernarfon, Criccieth, Beaumaris, Harlech, Pembroke, Caerphilly and Chepstow, right down in the south east of Wales, literally on the border with England.

Edward II was born in Caernarfon Castle and became the very first Prince of Wales, in honour of the Welsh people who had, against their will of course, had become subjugated by the fearless English King.

Edward II was known as Longshanks - he was a very handsome individual, very slim and athletic and over 6ft 2ins tall, which in those days was very unusually tall. Poor old Edward was more fond of hedonistic pursuits than he was of Royal princely stuff - and although his true sexual orientation lay elsewhere he did produce an heir who in turn became known as The Black Prince, and later King Edward III, who was totally different from his father in so many ways - more like his grandfather, Edward I, who in turn was a very militaristic, belligerent man whereas his son, Edward II, was far more interested in "having fun" and the far more peaceful world of art, music, poetry and things of beauty which were easy on the eye and which even made available carnal pleasures which included what was known as "favourites" in those days - such as Piers Gaveston and Hugh Despenser, both of whom met unfortunate ends at the hands of those in the Establishment of the day desperate to rid themselves of this "effete" King.....which they ultimately achieved with the aid of a red hot poker thrust into a very unsavoury part of poor old Edward's anatomy in 1327. RIP, Eddie lad!

Edward's body was taken to Gloucester Cathedral where it now rests in a large tomb, and each time I went to see it it was liberally covered with flowers or floral bouquets or just simple little posies of wild flowers.

Much of northern and western Europe is currently experiencing a severe spell of icy and snowy weather with temperatures in some places, such as Moscow and Warsaw, as low as -30C, and in Western Europe down to between -10C and -15C maximum during the day.So it is really the bleak midwinter, so let's hear Gloucester Cathedral ring to the seasonal tones of "In the Bleak Midwinter":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRobryliBLQ&feature=related
Armada   Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:06 pm GMT
It's a pity how the Jews have fooled our societies. They are like a virus. Here is common to say "happy holidays" instead of "merry christmas " too.
Damian in Edinburgh   Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:06 am GMT
Happy but virtually (but not absolutely) sober.....if it was ever suggested that the UK be declared a "dry zone" the most almighty public revolt ever witnessed in the entire history of mankind would take place and that's for certain!

Gloucester Cathedral was the setting for Hogwarts in the Harry Potter films and boys from Gloucester King's School (a private fee paying school in the city) featured in the film - it's a poor quality YT clip but one of those local Gloucester boys appears in this clip as well as in one of the Harry Potter films.

Of the three cathedrals, all within 16 miles or so from each other in a kind of triangle - Gloucester, Worcester and Hereford - all three are quite distinctly different from each other in architectural style - and I have been in all three cathedrals - Gloucester is my favourite. It is built of pale golden white Cotswold stone, whereas Hereford (on the banks of the River Wye) is built of red sandstone (like the colour of the soil in Herefordshire) and Worcester (on the banks of the River Severn, and Gloucester cathedral is very close to the same river) is a darker greyish type of granite type stone, but all three are almost 900 years old.

Worcester cathedral contains the tomb of England's King John (died 1216) best known for losing all of his precious jewels when crossing over some sandbanks on the shores of The Wash (a large inlet of the North Sea in Eastern England) when he was cut off by the swiftly rising flow of the incoming tide. He was lucky to escape with his life but his precious gems were swept away never to be found again.

It was King John who was forced by the barons of England to sign the Magna Carta in 1215, thus setting the foundation of what was to become the British (unwritten) Constitution much of which is still enshrined in our legal and social systems to this very day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k8Tf4Pqkis&feature=related
Jasper   Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:25 am GMT
"It's a pity how the Jews have fooled our societies. They are like a virus. Here is common to say "happy holidays" instead of "merry christmas " too. "

Armada, a lot of Europeans (Continentals, mostly) have given us untold grief over the years because of our problems with racism, while at the same time spouting off the most egregious anti-Semitism; in fact, they seem not the least bit restrained about expressing it.

This blatant hypocrisy bewilders me.
Jasper   Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:27 am GMT
Anyway, Damian, our trend towards wishing people "Happy Holidays" is based on the realization that the US has a lot of non-Christian citizens.
greece   Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:40 am GMT
Political correctness is a curse. I hate the de-Christianisation of the West, and I am even an atheistic agnostic!
Yes, Christianity should be privileged over recent arrivals, yes crosses should be allowed in Italian schools, yes Orthodox icons should be allowed in Greek ones. Christianity is the heritage of the West, our society was built on it and it can't be denied. Ok, don't believe it, no problem, but don't try and claim that other religions have as much right to have as much a presence here as Christianity. Believe your religions, worship them freely, but don't try and change your host country to your liking.

Why are you offended by a cross anyway? If you don't believe in it then it should be just like any other object to you. Why don't you get offended at the window instead? If you're offended by an icon, which should just be like any other picture for you, why aren't you offended by the map on the wall?
Oh, and FUCK Strasbourg.
Armada   Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:55 am GMT
<<Anyway, Damian, our trend towards wishing people "Happy Holidays" is based on the realization that the US has a lot of non-Christian citizens.>>


But these holidays are Christmas anyways. We celebrate Christian nativity of Christ and that is the reason why there are holidays. If there is nothing to celebrate for the Jews, Muslims or other strange people then they should work instead of taking holidays.