Which is and will be more important?
Latin America: Portuguese or Spanish?
I would like to see the Amerincian languages of Latin America gain a more prominent status.
Portuguese and Italian.
After them French, Quechua, Aymara, Guarani, Quiche, Nahuatl and Hindi.
After them French, Quechua, Aymara, Guarani, Quiche, Nahuatl and Hindi.
Spanish, Portuguese is of no use outside of Brazil, and you will do fine in Brazil speaking just Spanish, people learn Spanish in Brazil, and they like music in Spanish (which they call: música latina).
Fato.
O brasileiro não gosta de música latina!!!
Tente primeiro engrossar a voz,coxabamba cocalero,depois nós te ouvimos!
O brasileiro não gosta de música latina!!!
Tente primeiro engrossar a voz,coxabamba cocalero,depois nós te ouvimos!
Spanish. There are several reasons:
1. It is easier than a country, Brazil, study Spanish, than over 20 countries of Latin America study at the same time Brazilian Portuguese
2. There is also a phonetic reason. Spanish is easier to understand for Brazilians, but not the opposite. Portuguese is not so easy to understand for Spanish speakers
3. Finally, there is a practical point. Spanish is very spoken and studied in Latin America, European Union and North America. Portuguese is really spoken only in Brazil
1. It is easier than a country, Brazil, study Spanish, than over 20 countries of Latin America study at the same time Brazilian Portuguese
2. There is also a phonetic reason. Spanish is easier to understand for Brazilians, but not the opposite. Portuguese is not so easy to understand for Spanish speakers
3. Finally, there is a practical point. Spanish is very spoken and studied in Latin America, European Union and North America. Portuguese is really spoken only in Brazil
'Latin America' is a useless concept, there's no significant linguistic, historical, cultural, economical and infrastructural connections between Brazil and Hispanic America. The only Hispanic country which is economically important and to which Brazilians feel any kind of connection is our former archenemy Argentina.
Convidado, fale por você mesmo. O "brasileiro" das generalizações não conhece o mundo, mesmo aquele que julga conhecer pelas séries da TV a cabo. Qualquer um que tenha viajado por Argentina, Uruguai, Colômbia e Venezuela reconhece as semelhanças e a maior proximidade cultural que temos com os vizinhos do que, por exemplo, com americanos e canadenses. Coisas fundamentais como: língua (ainda que distintas), religião predominante, trato social, arquitetura urbana, trato social etc e tal.
Prezado Penetra, não nego nada do que disseste e nada do que disseste vai contra o que eu dissera antes. Eu mesmo já percebi pessoalmente essa semelhança quando, fazendo curso no exterior, dentre estrangeiros de quase toda parte era com os sul-americanos que os brasileiros pareciam "naturalmente" se agrupar. Perceba todavia que com os países escandinavos o Brasil também possui semelhanças e maior proximidade cultural, em todos os pontos que levantaste, do que, por exemplo, com a Birmânia e a Suazilândia. No entanto um conceito que abrangesse Brasil e Escandinávia seria um conceito inútil e artificial. O mesmo vale para o conceito de 'América Latina'.
Por questões históricas e demográficas os únicos países hispânicos que possuem alguma relação com o Brasil são os países do Prata, que hoje formam o Mercosul, e o México, que já teve importância cultural por aqui. Mas ainda assim mesmo o brasileiro educado, para não falar nada do brasileiro médio que sequer consegue encontrar o Brasil num mapa, desconhece praticamente tudo destes países. Acho que essa não é uma afirmação controversa.
Qual a presença da cultura pop hispânica no Brasil? Não sei como andam as coisas hoje, mas até uns tempos atrás se limitava a algumas novelas mexicanas, ao Chavo del Ocho (ambos sempre dublados) e alguma banda pop mexicana. Entre a população mais educada um pouco de tango, Borges, alguns escritores contemporâneos como o Garcia Marques, e quem sabe alguma música folk. Isto é, praticamente nada.
Quanto à economia, basta pegar a lista dos parceiros comerciais do Brasil: entre os dez primeiros (dados de 2006) temos apenas Argentina em segundo lugar , Chile em oitavo e México em décimo.
A ligação infraestrutural é inexistente, novamente com exceção dos países do Prata.
É uma pena que a idéia *hispânica* de uma imaginária unidade continental tenha sido encampada pela esquerda brasileira e depois de décadas finalmente se alastrado pelas camadas mais educadas da população.
Por questões históricas e demográficas os únicos países hispânicos que possuem alguma relação com o Brasil são os países do Prata, que hoje formam o Mercosul, e o México, que já teve importância cultural por aqui. Mas ainda assim mesmo o brasileiro educado, para não falar nada do brasileiro médio que sequer consegue encontrar o Brasil num mapa, desconhece praticamente tudo destes países. Acho que essa não é uma afirmação controversa.
Qual a presença da cultura pop hispânica no Brasil? Não sei como andam as coisas hoje, mas até uns tempos atrás se limitava a algumas novelas mexicanas, ao Chavo del Ocho (ambos sempre dublados) e alguma banda pop mexicana. Entre a população mais educada um pouco de tango, Borges, alguns escritores contemporâneos como o Garcia Marques, e quem sabe alguma música folk. Isto é, praticamente nada.
Quanto à economia, basta pegar a lista dos parceiros comerciais do Brasil: entre os dez primeiros (dados de 2006) temos apenas Argentina em segundo lugar , Chile em oitavo e México em décimo.
A ligação infraestrutural é inexistente, novamente com exceção dos países do Prata.
É uma pena que a idéia *hispânica* de uma imaginária unidade continental tenha sido encampada pela esquerda brasileira e depois de décadas finalmente se alastrado pelas camadas mais educadas da população.
It can be true.
But the reality is that Puerto Rico, Costa Rica, Panama, Honduras, Mexico, Venezuela, and even Colombia have English as the medium of instruction. In all of them the strongest language is almost always the winner. So, Spanish can disappear there...
Another good example. The Amerindianization of Bolivia, Peru, Guatemala, Ecuador and Paraguay is very strong. The only national languages in these countries are QUECHUA, AYMARA, QUICHE and GUARANI. Spanish is not yet the national language. It is only a "secondary language". Besides, English is also becoming important in these countries. So, the role of Spanish in these countries is dubious.
Even I know that in several Hispanic American countries, like in Uruguay that a minority prefer to speak in Portuguese/Portunhol for cultural reasons: The language of lussophones. This fad is obviously very dangerous for Spanish language.
Finally, there are several countries of Eastern Europe that do not belong to the Hispanidad for several reasons: economic aid and to strengthen the economic ties with Western Europe. Anyway, the reality is that they don't study Spanish, but ENGLISH, GERMAN, FRENCH, RUSSIAN, and ITALIAN.
On the whole, all these countries see that English and French are the global languages, the global fad and it is more practical to study English and French than Spanish. If this fad becomes important in Puerto Rico, Panama, Costa Rica, etc. Spanish can be very weak there.
The power of a language is the people that speak the language everyday, non-native and secondary speakers. It is a tiny power for Spanish, hardly 25 million people all the World as secondary and non-native which makes it INUTILE like Chinese for a language spoken by 300+ million native speakers and yet people outside Castilia and Hispanic America could utter only "Hasta la vista, LA VIDA LOCA...
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
The future of French language is extremely dubious...
But the reality is that Puerto Rico, Costa Rica, Panama, Honduras, Mexico, Venezuela, and even Colombia have English as the medium of instruction. In all of them the strongest language is almost always the winner. So, Spanish can disappear there...
Another good example. The Amerindianization of Bolivia, Peru, Guatemala, Ecuador and Paraguay is very strong. The only national languages in these countries are QUECHUA, AYMARA, QUICHE and GUARANI. Spanish is not yet the national language. It is only a "secondary language". Besides, English is also becoming important in these countries. So, the role of Spanish in these countries is dubious.
Even I know that in several Hispanic American countries, like in Uruguay that a minority prefer to speak in Portuguese/Portunhol for cultural reasons: The language of lussophones. This fad is obviously very dangerous for Spanish language.
Finally, there are several countries of Eastern Europe that do not belong to the Hispanidad for several reasons: economic aid and to strengthen the economic ties with Western Europe. Anyway, the reality is that they don't study Spanish, but ENGLISH, GERMAN, FRENCH, RUSSIAN, and ITALIAN.
On the whole, all these countries see that English and French are the global languages, the global fad and it is more practical to study English and French than Spanish. If this fad becomes important in Puerto Rico, Panama, Costa Rica, etc. Spanish can be very weak there.
The power of a language is the people that speak the language everyday, non-native and secondary speakers. It is a tiny power for Spanish, hardly 25 million people all the World as secondary and non-native which makes it INUTILE like Chinese for a language spoken by 300+ million native speakers and yet people outside Castilia and Hispanic America could utter only "Hasta la vista, LA VIDA LOCA...
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
The future of French language is extremely dubious...
LANGUAGE POLICY IN HISPANIC AMERICA
LANGUAGE POLICY IN SPANISH-SPEAKING LATIN AMERICA DEALS WITH CHALLENGES TO THE STATUS OF SPANISH AS THE OFFICIAL LANGUAGE, A STATUS INHERITED FROM THE COLONIAL ADMINISTRATION OF THE NEW WORLD. THESE CHALLENGES COME FROM SEVERAL SOURCES: THE ASSERTION OF THE RIGHTS OF INDIGENOUS GROUPS, THE ‘DANGER’ OF FRAGMENTATION OF SPANISH INTO A MULTITUDE OF LOCAL DIALECTS, THE GROWING PRESTIGE OF ENGLISH AND INFLUENCE OF THE UNITED STATES, AND ALONG THE SOUTHERN BORDER OF BRAZIL, CONTACT WITH PORTUGUESE.
In the initial phase of colonization, the Catholic Monarchs and later Charles V required all of their new subjects to learn Spanish, just as their predecessors had imposed the learning of Castilian on the conquered Arab territories in order to bind them more closely together in the nation governed by Castile. However, it soon became clear that the linguistic diversity of the New World was too great to allow for the immediate implantation of Spanish, and some allowance had to be made for the usage of indigenous languages in teaching and evangelization. In 1570 Phillip II reluctantly authorized a policy of bilingualism in which instruction could be imparted in ‘the’ language of each Viceroyalty: Nahautl and in New Spain and Quechua in Peru, with the consequent extension of these two languages into territories where they were not spoken natively. Even this measure was not enough, however, and in 1596 Phillip II recognized the existent multilingualism: Spanish for administration and access to the elite, and a local indigenous language for evangelization and daily communication in indigenous communities. This policy lead to a separation of colonial society into a minority of Spanish/creole Spanish-speakers governing an indigenous majority speaking one of many indigenous languages. The separation became so great that it all but halted the Hispanization of rural areas and created local indigenous elites with considerable autonomy from the central adminstration. A reassertion of central authority commenced in 1770 when Carlos III declared Spanish to be the only language of the Empire and ordered the administrative, judicial and ecclesiastic authorities to extinguish all others. After Independence, the new nations and their successors maintained the offical status of Spanish as a means of strengthening national unity and pursuing modernization through education. This tendency was reinforced at the turn of the century through the 1940’s with notions of Social Darwinism, in which the vigorous hybrid groups of Latin America would eventually overcome the ‘weaker’ indigenous groups. It is only since World War II that this policy has suffered any substantial change.
Several processes converged in the post-War period to shake the linguistic status quo. One is the growth of industrialization, which requires an educated workforce and thus lends urgency to effective education. Another is agrarian reform, which raises the social status of the farmer while increasing his need for vocational training. These two processes create a growing pressure to learn the language of technology and mechanization, Spanish. As a counterpoint to this pressure, there was an understanding among policy makers of the failure of the pre-War incorporationist policies to acheive their goal of Hispanization. The confluence of these tendencies was a shift towards the usage of indigenous languages in primary schools to ease the transition to Spanish. Moreover, the dynamic of questioning the entire model of development grew, a dynamic that was reinforced by the emergence of indigenous activists educated in the new national schools. These contradictions came to a head during the labor and peasant movements of the 1950’s and 60’s, where calls for the preservation of indigenous languages served as a vehicle for the preservation of entire indigenous societies. The subsequent official response to these movements had diverse outcomes throughout Latin America. In Mexico, the new indigenous consciousness continued to grow unabated, as it did among the Bolivian Aymara and Ecuadorian Quechua, and to a lesser extent among the other Quechua speakers of Bolivia and Peru. Elsewhere, many organizations were driven into marginality or outright armed resistence, with the paradoxical result that often the only officially-tolerated supporters of indigenous languages were foreigners: scholars pursuing linguistic or anthropological fieldwork, linguists trained by the Summer Institute of Linguistics for the translation and dissemination of Christian texts, or members of other non-governmental organizations engaged in aid or relief work.
Only recently have indigenous defensors of indigenous languages found any standing on the national stage. This new tolerance has been said to reflect the neo-liberal reforms required as conditions for loans from the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund since the early 1990’s, with the threat of Communist takeover having receeded. There are now a multitude of protective measures that go from bilingual primary education (Honduras), to constitutional protection (Columbia), to the establishment of indigenous languages as co-official with Spanish (Guatemala).
With respect to the status of Spanish among native speakers, Independence lead to the creation of national educational institutions and a desire to reform Spanish orthography so as to facilitate its learning by American speakers, as well as to foster a literary tradition independent of Spain. Such reforms come to little in the face of the turbulence created by Independence, but a second round of standardization began as part of the modernization process initiated around 1870. Increasing immigration to Latin America and the strengthening of trends towards democratization lead to the fear among the intellectual elite that the linguistic unity of Latin America would collapse into a cacophomy of local variants, much as the Latin of the Roman Empire fragmented into the variety of Romance languages.
THE FINAL THREAT TO THE OFFICIAL STATUS OF SPANISH IS THE GROWING CONTACT WITH OTHER EUROPEAN LANGUAGES: WITH ENGLISH THROUGHOUT LATIN AMERICA, AND WITH PORTUGUESE ALONG THE SOUTHERN BORDER OF BRAZIL. CONTACT WITH ENGLISH ARISES THROUGH MIGRATION TO THE UNITED STATES FOR ECONOMIC OR POLITICAL REASONS OR SOJOURNS FOR BUSINESS OR EDUCATION. THIS CONTACT IS PARTICULARILY ACUTE IN THE CASE OF PUERTO RICO, WHERE ITS ADMINSTRATIVE DEPENDENCY ON THE UNITED STATES HAS LED TO AN EXTENSIVE DIFFUSION OF ENGLISH, AS WELL AS THE THREATENED IMPOSITION OF ENGLISH AS THE OFFICIAL LANGUAGE SHOULD PUERTO RICO EVER GAIN STATEHOOD. THIS THREAT HAS SPARKED INTELLECTUAL DEBATES THAT ECHO THE SPANISH-VS.-INDIGENOUS-LANGUAGE DEBATES HEARD ON THE MAINLAND: LANGUAGE IS AN EXPRESSION OF IDENTITY, PERHAPS THE FUNDMENTAL EXPRESSION OF IDENTITY, AND IT SHOULD NOT BE GIVEN UP LIGHTLY.
Selected references
Angel Rama (1996) The Lettered City. Duke University Press.
[spelling reform after independence, p. 43ff; foundation of Spanish American Academies, Cuervo, Caro & Bello p. 59ff]
Julio Ramos (1989) Desenceuntros de la modernidad en América Latina. Literatura y política en el siglo XIX. Tierra Firme, México.
[Ch. II sobre Bello]
Julio Ramos (1996) Paradojas de la letra. Ediciones eXcultura, Caracas, Miami, Quito.
[Ch. 1 sobre Bello]
http://www.tulane.edu/~howard/Pubs/LALangPol.html
LANGUAGE POLICY IN SPANISH-SPEAKING LATIN AMERICA DEALS WITH CHALLENGES TO THE STATUS OF SPANISH AS THE OFFICIAL LANGUAGE, A STATUS INHERITED FROM THE COLONIAL ADMINISTRATION OF THE NEW WORLD. THESE CHALLENGES COME FROM SEVERAL SOURCES: THE ASSERTION OF THE RIGHTS OF INDIGENOUS GROUPS, THE ‘DANGER’ OF FRAGMENTATION OF SPANISH INTO A MULTITUDE OF LOCAL DIALECTS, THE GROWING PRESTIGE OF ENGLISH AND INFLUENCE OF THE UNITED STATES, AND ALONG THE SOUTHERN BORDER OF BRAZIL, CONTACT WITH PORTUGUESE.
In the initial phase of colonization, the Catholic Monarchs and later Charles V required all of their new subjects to learn Spanish, just as their predecessors had imposed the learning of Castilian on the conquered Arab territories in order to bind them more closely together in the nation governed by Castile. However, it soon became clear that the linguistic diversity of the New World was too great to allow for the immediate implantation of Spanish, and some allowance had to be made for the usage of indigenous languages in teaching and evangelization. In 1570 Phillip II reluctantly authorized a policy of bilingualism in which instruction could be imparted in ‘the’ language of each Viceroyalty: Nahautl and in New Spain and Quechua in Peru, with the consequent extension of these two languages into territories where they were not spoken natively. Even this measure was not enough, however, and in 1596 Phillip II recognized the existent multilingualism: Spanish for administration and access to the elite, and a local indigenous language for evangelization and daily communication in indigenous communities. This policy lead to a separation of colonial society into a minority of Spanish/creole Spanish-speakers governing an indigenous majority speaking one of many indigenous languages. The separation became so great that it all but halted the Hispanization of rural areas and created local indigenous elites with considerable autonomy from the central adminstration. A reassertion of central authority commenced in 1770 when Carlos III declared Spanish to be the only language of the Empire and ordered the administrative, judicial and ecclesiastic authorities to extinguish all others. After Independence, the new nations and their successors maintained the offical status of Spanish as a means of strengthening national unity and pursuing modernization through education. This tendency was reinforced at the turn of the century through the 1940’s with notions of Social Darwinism, in which the vigorous hybrid groups of Latin America would eventually overcome the ‘weaker’ indigenous groups. It is only since World War II that this policy has suffered any substantial change.
Several processes converged in the post-War period to shake the linguistic status quo. One is the growth of industrialization, which requires an educated workforce and thus lends urgency to effective education. Another is agrarian reform, which raises the social status of the farmer while increasing his need for vocational training. These two processes create a growing pressure to learn the language of technology and mechanization, Spanish. As a counterpoint to this pressure, there was an understanding among policy makers of the failure of the pre-War incorporationist policies to acheive their goal of Hispanization. The confluence of these tendencies was a shift towards the usage of indigenous languages in primary schools to ease the transition to Spanish. Moreover, the dynamic of questioning the entire model of development grew, a dynamic that was reinforced by the emergence of indigenous activists educated in the new national schools. These contradictions came to a head during the labor and peasant movements of the 1950’s and 60’s, where calls for the preservation of indigenous languages served as a vehicle for the preservation of entire indigenous societies. The subsequent official response to these movements had diverse outcomes throughout Latin America. In Mexico, the new indigenous consciousness continued to grow unabated, as it did among the Bolivian Aymara and Ecuadorian Quechua, and to a lesser extent among the other Quechua speakers of Bolivia and Peru. Elsewhere, many organizations were driven into marginality or outright armed resistence, with the paradoxical result that often the only officially-tolerated supporters of indigenous languages were foreigners: scholars pursuing linguistic or anthropological fieldwork, linguists trained by the Summer Institute of Linguistics for the translation and dissemination of Christian texts, or members of other non-governmental organizations engaged in aid or relief work.
Only recently have indigenous defensors of indigenous languages found any standing on the national stage. This new tolerance has been said to reflect the neo-liberal reforms required as conditions for loans from the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund since the early 1990’s, with the threat of Communist takeover having receeded. There are now a multitude of protective measures that go from bilingual primary education (Honduras), to constitutional protection (Columbia), to the establishment of indigenous languages as co-official with Spanish (Guatemala).
With respect to the status of Spanish among native speakers, Independence lead to the creation of national educational institutions and a desire to reform Spanish orthography so as to facilitate its learning by American speakers, as well as to foster a literary tradition independent of Spain. Such reforms come to little in the face of the turbulence created by Independence, but a second round of standardization began as part of the modernization process initiated around 1870. Increasing immigration to Latin America and the strengthening of trends towards democratization lead to the fear among the intellectual elite that the linguistic unity of Latin America would collapse into a cacophomy of local variants, much as the Latin of the Roman Empire fragmented into the variety of Romance languages.
THE FINAL THREAT TO THE OFFICIAL STATUS OF SPANISH IS THE GROWING CONTACT WITH OTHER EUROPEAN LANGUAGES: WITH ENGLISH THROUGHOUT LATIN AMERICA, AND WITH PORTUGUESE ALONG THE SOUTHERN BORDER OF BRAZIL. CONTACT WITH ENGLISH ARISES THROUGH MIGRATION TO THE UNITED STATES FOR ECONOMIC OR POLITICAL REASONS OR SOJOURNS FOR BUSINESS OR EDUCATION. THIS CONTACT IS PARTICULARILY ACUTE IN THE CASE OF PUERTO RICO, WHERE ITS ADMINSTRATIVE DEPENDENCY ON THE UNITED STATES HAS LED TO AN EXTENSIVE DIFFUSION OF ENGLISH, AS WELL AS THE THREATENED IMPOSITION OF ENGLISH AS THE OFFICIAL LANGUAGE SHOULD PUERTO RICO EVER GAIN STATEHOOD. THIS THREAT HAS SPARKED INTELLECTUAL DEBATES THAT ECHO THE SPANISH-VS.-INDIGENOUS-LANGUAGE DEBATES HEARD ON THE MAINLAND: LANGUAGE IS AN EXPRESSION OF IDENTITY, PERHAPS THE FUNDMENTAL EXPRESSION OF IDENTITY, AND IT SHOULD NOT BE GIVEN UP LIGHTLY.
Selected references
Angel Rama (1996) The Lettered City. Duke University Press.
[spelling reform after independence, p. 43ff; foundation of Spanish American Academies, Cuervo, Caro & Bello p. 59ff]
Julio Ramos (1989) Desenceuntros de la modernidad en América Latina. Literatura y política en el siglo XIX. Tierra Firme, México.
[Ch. II sobre Bello]
Julio Ramos (1996) Paradojas de la letra. Ediciones eXcultura, Caracas, Miami, Quito.
[Ch. 1 sobre Bello]
http://www.tulane.edu/~howard/Pubs/LALangPol.html
In Paraguay Guarany is a co-official language, supposedly more spoken than Spanish, and is now one of the official languages of Mercosul, along with Spanish and Portuguese. Could a similar situation arise in Bolivia, Peru and Ecuador? Or perhaps in these countries there's no common native language that could be spoken by the whole population?