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Catalan, Basque, Valenciano or Galego?
<<Catalan developed by the 9th century from Vulgar Latin on both sides of the eastern part of Pyrenees mountains (counties of Roussillon, Empuries, Besalú, Cerdanya, Urgell, Pallars and Ribagorça). It shares features with Gallo-romance and Ibero-romance, and it could be said to be in its beginnings no more than an eccentric dialect of Occitan (or of Western Romance).>>
wikipedia
Brennus: "Ricardo,
Re: Basque didn't derive from any other language. We still don't know where the basque language cam from. Some say that it is the language of the cromagnon man. I think the Cro-Magnons are too far back in time for that. The last Cro-Magnons disappeared about 12,000 years ago, about the same time as the last sabertooth tigers." Well Euskara (basque) didn't pop out of no where. Euskara doesn't fit into anyother language group in the world making ii possibly the oldest language in the world. And we do know that the cro-magnon man inhabited those areas. Which leads many people to believe that this is the language of the descendants of the cro-magnon man. I hve an easier time believing that.
Brennus : le catalan est ***PARTIELLEMENT*** (quoique majoritairement) en Ibérie. Mais ça n'en fait pas une langue ibérique au sens ***LINGUISTIQUE*** (et non géographique) du terme.
CECI ▼ ▼ « (Ibero-Romance) Portuguese Galician Mozarabic (Ladino) Spanish (Castilian) Mexican Spanish <<< American English areal influences Puerto Rican Spanish <<< American English areal influences Andean Spanish Asturian Aragonese Catalan <<< French and Provençal areal influences » ▼ ▼ EST COMPLÈTEMENT FAUX !!! Le catalan est à rattacher à la famille des langues d'Oc ainsi qu'au piedmontais, au lombard etc. Les «areal influences» dont tu parles sont celles du castillan et non de l'occitan puisque l'ancien catalan ***C'EST*** l'ancien occitan !!! Le catalan a subi des influences ibériques (castillan, surtout) mais il ne fait pas partie de la Romanie ibérique : il fait partie de la Romanie centrale —> languedocien, provençal, auvergnat, limousin, vivarais, gascon, béarnais, piedmontais, ligure, lombard etc.
You neglect to give any Occitan examples; were we not talking about the relationship between Catalan and Occitan? In fact all these examples can be used to contradict your argument:
<<AYGUA Sp. agua (water) but Fr. 'eau',>> Occitan: Aigue / Aiga (p.s. in standard Catalan it's Aigua - no y) <<CADA Sp. cada <V.Lat. *cata (every),>> Occitan: Cada (also note Cadun, meaning each one , which is identical in Occitan and Catalan. << ENUTJAR Sp. enojar (to be angry),>> Occitan: enujar (also note cognates - Cat: enuig Occ: enueg) << ESQUERE Sp. izquierda (left),>> Occitan: esquerre/ esquerra << FORMIGUER Sp. hormiguero (anthill),>> Occitan: formiguier << EL MARRà, Sp. el marrano (the ram) >> Occitan: Marre <<El LLENYADOR, Sp. El leñador (The woodcutter),>> Cat: llenya Occ: lenha (Catalan 'ny' and Occitan 'nh' are pronounced identically) << MATEIX Sp. mismo < Lat. 'metipse' (same),>> Occ: meteis <<Que Llastima>> Correction: in standard Catalan you would say QUINA llastima. While llastima is probably a loan word from Castillian - note that Quin/quina are identical in Occitan and Catalan. <<PLATA, Sp. plata (silver),>> While 'Plata' is almost definitely a loan word from Castillian, Catalan and Occitan also have the cognate 'Argent.' <<EL PUNYAL Sp. El puñal (The dagger),>> Occitan: Punhal (pronunciation identical) << VEGA Sp. vega (Land beside a river) etc.>> I could not find this in my Catalan dictionary, but I did find the following words for 'bank of a river' (bord in French): Cat: vora, riba Occ: vora, riba It would be surprising if Catalan did not contain a great deal of Castillian loan words and phonetic influence, since the territories have contiguous borders, while the Langues D'Oc have in turn been politically isolated from Catalan and been further influenced by French. But on a deep level, looking at grammatical features which are less susceptible to change than vocabulary and phonology, Catalan and Occitan are part of the same linguistic continuum within the wider continuum of Romance languages; for example, we could cite thousands of Latinate words in the English language and use these to argue that English is more closely allied with Italian than it is with Frisian, when this is clearly not the case! Catalan and Occitan share many such 'deep' features which diverge equally from Castillian and French - formation of past participles, object pronouns, subjunctive forms, noun and adjective suffixes, auxiliary verbs, prepositions, conjunctions and articles... However eminent an authority W.D. Elcock may be, I can say that, having lived a year in Catalunya and speaking basic Catalan, fluent French and Spanish and having spent time in Languedoc and read and studied basic Occitan, he has definitely not sat down and compared both languages! <<It is important not to mix languages with politics and I think that the affinity some Catalonians have for France is based more on political sentiments than linguistic ones. They probably would not be happy under French rule or guardianship either but consider the French to be a lesser evil than the Castilian Spanish.>> I think this is unfair on Greg given that he has betrayed no political bias or political motivation for his argument; it is far more likely that W.D. Elcock was politically motivated in his philological classifications, given that he is patently wrong!
Brennus : « It is important not to mix languages with politics (...) ».
??? Pourquoi cette remarque ? Brennus : « Standard Catalán does have 'jorn' for "day" and 'asne' for "donkey" cf. French jour, âne (Latin diurnus, asinus) but some dialects still use 'dia' and 'burro' cf. Spanish día, burro (Latin dies, burrhus ). So jorn and asne can easily be explained as a later borrowings from Gallo-Latin or maybe even Provençal. » Mais tu n'as rien démontré du tout : on pourrait en conclure l'inverse ! Brennus : « It's not as though Romance speech disappeared from Roman Tarraconia only to be reintroduced by the French under Charlemagne 500 years later! » ??? Il ne s'agit ni des Français ni du français : il s'agit de l'ancien occitan dont le catalan moderne n'est qu'un avatar. Brennus : « e.g. AYGUA Sp. agua (water) but Fr. 'eau' » ??? Es <agua> Ca <aigua> Oc <aiga> gascon <aiga> provençal <aiga> <aigo> <aigua> <aiguo> ligure <ægua> poitevin <égue> <aeve> <éàu> savoyard <éga> <éva> <édya> AF(¹) <aigue> <aighe> <aive> <egua> <egue> <euge> <eugue> <eu> <eive> <ewe> <ew> <eawe> <eaw> <eve> <eau> <eaue> <eauue> <yaue> <iaue> <iwe> ▬►(¹) ancien français piedmontais <eva> gallo <aèv> <éau> wallon <êwe> picard <ieau> Brennus : « CADA Sp. cada <V.Lat. *cata (every) » Es <cada> Ca <cada> Oc <cada> Ga <cada> Pr <cada> Pv <cha> Brennus : « ESQUERE Sp. izquierda (left) » Es <izquierda> Ca <esquerra>(¹) Oc <esquèrra> Ga <esquèrra> <gaucha> Pr <esquèrra> <senèstra> <gaucha> ▬►(¹) s. XII; d'origen ***PREROMÀ***, d'un mot ibèric emparentat amb el basc o d'un comp. ja basc, esku 'mà', i un adj. semblant a okerr 'tort, defectuós', contret en eskkerr, *eskuerra en romànic primitiu. De toute façon Brennus, ce n'est pas avec des mots isolés que tu parviendras à "prouver" ta théorie. Ni même avec 100.000 mots —> sinon l'anglais serait un dialecte français. Le catalan est issu de l'ancien occitan. Je pense que le mieux est de laisser la parole à ceux qui savent de quoi ils parlent : « Considerem les llengües romàniques com a germanes, derivades d'una mare comuna. Potser convindria que, basant-nos en la presència de determinats caràcters comuns, assenyaléssim l'existència d'uns diasistemes llatins que constitueixen el tronc d'un grup de llengües romàniques. L'observació lèxica fa veure que el català, l'occità i el francès es remunten a un d'aquest diasistemes... ▬►El diasistema llatí del qual procedeix el català és distint de l'anomenat llatí hispànic, base del portuguès i del castellà.◄▬ ▬►El català i l’occità són dues llengües neollatines bessones que divergeixen sobretot pels sons i les diftongacions.◄▬ Entre catalans i occitans, hi ha diferències, mes també se troben una enorme quantitat de semblances com no es troben en cap altres pobles. L'afinitat cultural i lingüística de les nacions catalana i occitana no té cap altre paral·lel semblant en el món. A causa de les estretes relacions que mantenien Catalunya i Occitània,la introducció de occitanismes en el català comença a partir dels segles XI i XII. En el camp literari la influència va ser tan forta que a principis del segle XV els poetes catalans escrivíen en provençal o en una mescla de català i provençal. »
Catalán sounds as ugly as Continental Portuguese.
I can't see any resemblance with French. Brazilian Portuguse is the most French-sounding not-French language.
To my ear, Basque language sounds very Spanishesque, it seems this language lost its original phonology and intonation, it sounds like a Middle east language spoken with heavy Spanish accent:
listen to the Basque radio: http://www.eitb.com/media/EuskadiIrratia.asp
I'm not a linguist, so I can't pronouce myself if Catalan should be grouped among Ibero-romance or Gallo-romance language. but I should say, having being studing Catalan and having being born in region of southern Francen that I personally find the two languages very close to each other. Catalan is much more similar to Occitan than to spanish without a doubt, in its gramar and vocabulary. Catalan doesn't give the impression of been born after an influence of occitan upon "ibero-romance", but much more the contrary; its seems like a form of occitan who would have had castillian influences.
I tend to think that there are some tabu subjects for Brennus. That the half of France would be very close "sister" with the half of Spain seem to be one.
<< Latin language was in Tarraconia (Catalonia) for almost two centuries before it was in Gaul. >>
Yes, hence Spanish being close to vulgar latin, with Iberian substratum and Arabic influences. But Catalan started off independently as a dialect of Occitan which spread West into Provence, Languedoc and Spain and North into central France - ergo Occitan dialects in North-West Italy and Provence. <<It's not as though Romance speech disappeared from Roman Tarraconia only to be reintroduced by the French under Charlemagne 500 years later!>> What is so implausible about a second Romance language moving into parts of Spain? The history of the Iberian peninsula is replete with invasions and migrations. During the Reconquista Catalan DID spread south into Tarragona and Valencia regions: "Academics almost universally believe that Valencian has its origin in the Catalan was brought to the territories that became the Kingdom of Valencia during the Reconquista. While Castile moved south conquering New Castile and Andalusia, the Aragonese and Catalan settlers from the Crown of Aragon conquered and populated Valencia. It was originally assumed that most of these settlers came from South-West Catalonia. However, the Aragonese Professor Antonio Ubieto Arteta in his book Origenes del Reino de Valencia, which is a reliable and independet source based on the numbers from El llibre dels repartiments (the major conquest book by James I the Conqueror) shows that the percentage of immigration from Catalonia is only 5% of the total immigration, during the conquest and the subsequent XIV and XV centuries. The population of Valencia remained 70% Mozarabic and Moorish, 11% originating from the rest of Castile, 10% from the Crown of Aragon and 7% from foreign countries. Therefore the theory of a mass migration from Catalonia is at least questionable. That notwithstanding, there are many examples of language change without large scale population movement, notably in Ireland, Wales and Scotland where indigenous languages were replaced by English in the space of a few generations, with very little inward migration. The evidence provided by Ubieto does not, on its own, contradict the Catalan origin of Valencian." Wikipedia
" But as I said before, Latin and Romance had been continuously spoken in the region for a long time,... in 206 B.C. This was two centuries before Latin began to take root in Gaul. "
Latin began to take root in Gaul around in 120 B.C. As far I know it is 80 years after 202, not two centuries! The colonisation of the whole Gaul finished in 52 B.C, while the colonisation of the whole Hispania finished later, in 19 B.C.
"Greg and Todosmentira have been just as ademant in wanting to make Catalan a virtual dialect of French "
They were more likely claiming it as a dialect of Oc, not of language d'oil (french). A lot of linguists consider Catalan and Occitan(s) as different dialects of the same group. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitan#Les_diff.C3.A9rences_entre_l.E2.80.99occitan_et_le_catalan
Brennus : « Greg and Todosmentira have been just as ademant in wanting to make Catalan a virtual dialect of French, for that matter, but I think I have stronger evidence for my position instead. That's all. »
Tu n'as pas compris ce que je disais. Le catalan n'est bien sûr ***PAS*** un dialecte français puisque le catalan n'est ***PAS*** une langue d'Oïl —> ce qui d'ailleurs ne serait même ***PAS*** une condition suffisante dans la mesure ou ni le wallon, ni le picard, ni le gallo ni le poitevin (etc) ne sont des dialectes français mais des langues d'Oïl distinctes de la langue française (une langue d'Oïl parmi d'autres). En revanche, le catalan est une langue d'Oc ibérisée. L'ancien catalan était un dialecte de l'ancien occitan, mais aujourd'hui le catalan est une langue bien séparée des occitans modernes. Il n'en reste pas moins qu'il est étroitement lié aux langues d'Oc et certainement pas au castillan.
"You need to put things in a historical context and ask yourself "In which province did Latin arrive first?""
This is not the issue; both Castillian and Occitan developed from and AFTER latin. People, cultures and languages continued to move into the Iberian peninsula AFTER the Romans...
<<Latin arrived in Gaul relatively late (1st century B.C.) as compared to Spain (3rd century B.C.).>>
Latin may have *arrived* later in Gaul than it did in Hispania, but the Romanization of the Iberians didn't happen overnight. It took several centuries to do so, and Latin didn't become the common language of the Iberian people until during and after Augustus' (Octavian) reign in the 1st century BC. By this time the Southern Gauls along the Mediterranean coast had been conquered by the Romans, and the province of Gallia Narbonensis ("Provincia") was established in the 2nd century BC in an attempt to solidify communications between Rome and the Iberian peninsula. Thus, by the 1st Century AD both sides of the Pyrenees were heavily Romanized and Latin-speaking. However, all this is irrelevant because Latin isn't what we're talking about here, but the Romance vernaculars that sprung from it. <<The Visigothic occupation of Roman Spain ( A.D. 415 - 711) did not bring about and end to Latin being spoken in Tarraconia (Catalonia) because the Visigoths adopted Hispano-Romance in the much the same way that the Franks adopted Gallo-Romance (French & Provençal).>> The Frankish presence in Southern Gaul was minimal compared to the North. Like Tarraconia, this region of modern-day France was occupied and overrun by the Visigoths, primarily in a region known as "Septimania" (the western portion of Roman Provincia, which later became known as "Gothia", and now known as "Languedoc"). And like Catalonia, this region was invaded by the Moors and reconquered by the Franks. I mention these points to illustrate how already we see a commonality between the cultures of Catalonia and Southern France, esp. Languedoc. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Espanyamusulmana1.png After the Frankish reconquest of Septimania and the establishment of the Spanish March south of the Pyrenees, Charlemagne and subsequent Frankish rulers issued land grants (aprisios) to encourage settlement of these regions, which lay devastated and depopulated by the wars. Most of those who settled these regions came from Southern France and surrounding regions that were loyal to the Frankish kingdom; thus, setting the stage for the concomitant development of the cultures that lay on both sides of the Pyrenees. The people and the nobility intermarried and intermixed, and their spoken vernaculars were virtually identical. By the 11th and 12th centuries, the vulgar Latin that developed into Occitan became the literary language of prestige throughout Europe and it was adopted by the Catalonian troubadours who passed it down to the common people. In the 12th and 13th centuries, we begin seeing a shift in Catalonian texts from literary Langue d'Oc to a distinctly Catalan vernacular. However, 16th century Catalonian poets still referred to this language as "Llemosí" or "Llengua Llemosina" (i.e. the Langue d'Oc dialect of Limoges, France), even though their writings were clearly closer to contemporary Catalan than to Occitan. http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llengua_llemosina Therefore, how can one say that Catalan belongs in the Ibero-Romance category while Occitan belongs in a separate Gallo-Romance group when their origins and histories are so intertwined? |