American accent in French

LAA   Tue Sep 05, 2006 10:17 pm GMT
Guest, are you Fab? I don't see how a "rolled r" would sound natural in French. How would a "rolled r" be proper pronounciation, when French speakers do not speak as such?
Pauline   Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:21 pm GMT
LAA,

Can I ask what is your mother tongue?

I think that what Guest has written it's true ; if you pronounce the 'r' like in spanish or italian, this wouldn't create a problem for understand. Some flemish when they're speak french pronounce a similar 'r' and it doesn't prevent understanding at all.
Jérémy   Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:47 pm GMT
I am French and I don't think I am able to recognize an American from a British person if they are speaking French.

As far as Canadian French is concerned, of course it's not always for us French to understand it but I really find it more beautiful because it sounds like music, it has a rythm and different intonations whereas "French French" is just flat and boring.
LAA   Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:47 pm GMT
Pauline,

My mother tounge is English, although I grew up around Spanish all the time, as some of the older ones in my family exclusively speak Spanish. That is why pronouncing Spanish is so easy for me, I suppose. Being that Italian phonology is nearly identical to Spanish, it is no wonder that I find pronouncing Italian to be such a piece of cake as well. But I encounter difficulty in properly pronouncing French. I know I will be understood if I spoke with a rolled 'r', but I want to pronounce French properly, as the French themselves do. I strive for perfection when trying to pronounce any language. If I may ask, are you French? And if so, what major city are you from? Don't name Pays, I most likely will not know them.
Tiffany   Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:14 am GMT
Pauline, as I have come to understand, is Walloon - she is from the part of Belgium that speaks French.
greg   Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:41 am GMT
Guest : « You don't need to try to speak with the"uvular r" to be understood in French. If you are a spanish speaker you can use your "rolled r", it doesn't bother the comprehension. »

LAA : « I don't see how a "rolled r" would sound natural in French. How would a "rolled r" be proper pronounciation, when French speakers do not speak as such? »


Tu n'as pas compris ce que Guest vient de t'expliquer. Il disait que quelle que soit la pronociation du <r>, la compréhension fonctionne. D'ailleurs le <r> n'est pas seulement uvulaire en France. Certaines personnes roulent les <r> (comme en espagnol ou en italien) et d'autres peuvent le prononcer [w] en intervocalique (aux Antilles par ex.).
Jérémy   Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:56 am GMT
En Français "de France" en tout cas, nous ne roulant absolument pas les r (ça a été le cas parfois il y a longtemps, et c'est ce que font encore parfois certaines personnes très agées). Bien sûr que nous comprendrons un Italien ou un Espagnol qui parle en roulant les "r", mais pour ma part, je trouve ça très irritant, de la même manière que je trouve agaçant un Anglais qui, en parlant Français, rononce des "r" à l'anglaise ou l'inverse, un Français qui ne fat pas d'effort en Anglais et prononce des "r" Français. Le pire que j'aie entendu, c'était des Espagnols parlant Anglais en roulant les "r", je trouve ça vraiment moche. Même lorsque les Espagnols parlent Français, ils roulent souvent les "r" alors que le "r" Français existent bien en Espagnol (à peu près), ce que je trouve également désagréable.

Tout ça pour dire que bien sûr, on comprendra toujours si telle ou telle personne parle une langue en prononçant certaines lettres, notamment le "r", comme elle le fait dans sa langue maternelle. Mais personnellement ça m'agace car je trouve que ces personnes ne font aucun effort alors qu'il n'est pourtant pas difficile d'en faire à ce propos.
boubka   Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:00 am GMT
" but I want to pronounce French properly, as the French themselves do"


En Français "de France" en tout cas, nous ne roulant absolument pas les r (ça a été le cas parfois il y a longtemps, et c'est ce que font encore parfois certaines personnes très agées).


What french people are you talking about? Provençal? Parisien? Lyonnais? Marseillais? Vendéen? Auvergnats?

The pronunciations are different from an area to naother one.


""En Français "de France"""", ça ne vaut rien dire. La savoie n'était pas française in y a de ça 200 ans maintenant elle l'est, idem pour la Corse, la Provence.........

Alors quel français de quelle france parles tu?
Pauline   Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:25 am GMT
''If I may ask, are you French? And if so, what major city are you from? Don't name Pays, I most likely will not know them. ''

Tiffany Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:14 am GMT
''Pauline, as I have come to understand, is Walloon - she is from the part of Belgium that speaks French. ''

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Yes, it's correct ; I'm walloon (french-speaking belgian) and I come from the region what's nearby the french and luxembourg borders. There's not a major city here.


_________________________________________________
Jérémy,

As a french, how you find the belgian french? It's true that in france they think we're very stupid? Don't worry about say yes! I wouldn't be upset:)
Jérémy   Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:12 am GMT
When I speak about "Français de France", I mean French spoken in France as opposed to French in Belgium or Quebec.

Who cares about whether la Provence or la Corse used to be French or not, now they are and the official language is French. Of course there are regional languages such as that in Corse, or la langue d'oc, or le Breton ... but I am speaking about French, not about regional languages in France. Even thought some sounds may be different in France depending on where people are ("rose" is not pronounced the same in Paris and Toulouse), "r" is never rolled in French. I mean in good French. You won't ever hear a TV speaker rolling an "r" in France. And the only people left doing it in France are either old people or people who are holding on to their regionalisms but it always sounds archaic to most French people.


Pauline,
It's true that people in Belgium have the reputation, here in France, to be ("of being" ? I don't know) stupid, but this is just a mere persistant joke, no one really thinks Belgian people are actually stupid. It's just like jokes on blondes.
However, it is true to say that Belgian French does sound funny to us because compared to us you speak much more slowly and a lot of your voyels are more closed. Some intonations are different too. It's about the same for Switzerland; people there sound even more funny because they speak even more slowly (yes they do !! :p) (people in Switzerland are often compared to snails because of the speed of their French !) but also because they have a real harsh way of pronouncing Rs, it sounds like they are hurting their throats :p
LAA   Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:14 pm GMT
So, how did most of France began to speak with the uvular R in the first place? Supposedly, it's a more recent phenomenon, but I always thought it had something to do with Gallic phonological influence. Or, being that this pronounciation originated with the standard Parisian (home of the Frankish court), I always thought it might have something to do with Germanic influence. Whatever the case, the uvular R reminds me of German or Dutch. I'm not particularly fond of it, as opposed to the Spanish/Italian rolled 'r', but it's part of what makes French unique, and I would not have it any other way.
Sergio   Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:40 pm GMT
Hi LAA,

German and Dutch have wide areas of rolled 'r' as well. Nobody finds it irritating.
Italian has some areas of uvular 'r' too.

I would also like to know where this uvular 'r' comes from anyway. I like it so much as I like my Spanish rolled 'r', or the semivowel Danish 'r', and I think that once you are able to pronounce one 'r', it should be not so dificult to manage the pronountiation of the other ones, even if the articulation place and muscles intervening are totally different.
Tiffany   Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:48 pm GMT
I don't know if that's true, Sergio. My sister is able to do the English "r" but still has problems rolling her r's. So knowing one, does not mean knowing all. I have no trouble with any of them, and neither do you I guess, but maybe we're just lucky ;)

I have heard the uvular r is of Germanic origin, by the way.
Sergio   Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:08 pm GMT
Hi Tiffany,

I think you misunderstood me, (or I didn't write it well ;)). I didn't imply to know all once you manage one. I implied it being just easier once you manage one "foreign" 'r', besides the one from your mother tongue.

By the way, I don't know why, but it seems easier to learn the uvular one, if you have the rolled one in you mother tongue. This is just my point of view, and is sustained on the fact that most of German speakers (whose 'r' is uvular, of course, not the others) and French speakers I have heard speaking Spanish till now can't get rid of their uvular 'r', whereas a lot of Italian and Spanish speakers I have heard speaking French seem to do better with the uvular 'r' (with exceptions in both cases, of course)

Is this just lazziness? or is it really a more difficult articulation place? I don't dare to propose an answer because I am no linguist.

From the English 'r' point of view, what 'r' seems easier to you?
Tiffany   Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:14 pm GMT
<<From the English 'r' point of view, what 'r' seems easier to you?>>

None of them are very hard. I've been doing the English 'r' since I learned to speak and the rolled 'r' since six. Both seem natural to me. The uvular 'r' is a bit more recent, but after I figured out what position to put my tongue in the achieve the sound, it does not seem hard. I guess it's more unnatural to me than the other two, but I would hesitate to say it is more difficult.