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Origin of the word "El" in Spanish
More dark featured Spaniards
http://web.mit.edu/rafal/www/Pics/Spaniards/pedro-grp.jpg Luciano Pavaroti could almost pass for Castro http://apnews.myway.com//article/20060707/D8IN7FU80.html
" It's seems you are obsessed with Spaniars and you have the idea that in an American country only Spaniards have come as immigrants. We have received in the last 150 years important groups of immigrants from Asia mainly Chinese and even some Arabians, from Caribbean with African origin and in some grade Europeans (not Spaniards) like Italians and Germans. We constantly have immigrations from other Central American, South American like Colombia and Argentina and even from US. Some estimate almost a million of them in about 20 years have arrived. Our country is a melting pot today that's why you didn't find what you saw like to be in a Madrid street of course assuming that modern Spaniards have the same look that Costa Rica conquistadores. "
I completly agree with you; There are no ethnies, and most peoples in the world are fruit of mixing of a lot of countries. You could tell this to LAA. LLA defined himslef as being "pure mediterranean", and he thinks that all mediterranean people look dark as him, thinking that french people couldn't be mediteranean beaécause to his eyes we are supposed to be with northern European look. It was just an attempt to show him that in winter without much sun, the dark spanish can be pale. I just gave my impressions. The way people acted with me was not the same aslo in Spain than in Costa Rica. In Spain I pass for being Spanish, while in Costa Rica most people though I was a gringo. It is a fact that the people who classified themselves as "white" in L-A have also some other faetures, since everybidy is mixed. No one is better to the other. " By the way do you know if the people from Quebec look identical to French people today. " I've been living in Montreal one year, Like french people, Quebecers are diverse and can show diverse faatures, including black skin. It is the french language that link us to them. <<It was very different of when, I was in Argentina, where the people looked like spanish people.>> What you possibly saw was more descendants of Italians not only from Spaniards. " Absolutly true, most argentineans are a mix of Spanish, Italians. " <<; So he should conclude that those people have nothing in common with spain.>> Yes we have, language, religion, names. That's important, at least for me. " I deeply agree with you!! Your language, religion and most of habits are these comon ponts that makes you being part of the big hispanic family. It was a provocative sentence to make LLA think about his claims about France. I was just waiting this kind of answer from LLA. " I agree at least in those pictures but that's relative, I can show you lots of Spaniards that don't look like those persons, see these examples : They don't look like the people in your picture either. They could pass for Latin American without any problem. " For me they look diverse as were looking diverse and quite similar to the ones in my pictures... they just seem to be more tanned due to the fact that the fotos were probably taken in summer. Actually they look like most of my neighbours. " Costa Rica was possibly the place in America with the lowest native population at conquista times and still today. " For what I've heard I think it is true, except for the "south cone" countries. " Those are not Costa Rican natives, they are from Guatemala or Ecuador I'm not sure. If you want to see a real A.native here you have to go to reservations where I'm sure you didn't go in just a month. " That's possible they were not costa ricans. I just said that most costa Ricans don't look like those native indians and most don't look like spaniards either. " That's the point, I've seen Costa Ricans like him. Personally I found him very dark to be European but I could be wrong. " No a lot of Europeans are very dark. " Latin America, or take Mexico as one example, was as Hispanicized as Spain was Romanized. The people of Mexico are about half Spaniard. " So Mexicans are one fourth latin for you ? " Much in the way of cuisine was introduced by Spain, which was to the native staples like maize, beans, and chile. " Finally do you think mexican food more is more similar to Spanish food than french food ? Red Wine, crusty Bread, olive oil, etc... ? " Mexican music is of Spanish origin, not native. Mariachis use guitars and acordians. " I agree. I spoked about the most mediatised L-American musics such as Salsa or Bachatta whose rythms are African, not "latin". Anyway, there nothing bad I like enormeously thjose musics, and also Venezuelian music, wich is good too even if less famous. " We inherited the Spanish language from Spain. The Catholic religion, and European customs and etiquete. " So the culture is not linked with the physical appearance ? " Mexico is about as Aztec or Mayan as France is Celtic. " So, it means that Mexico is heavily Aztec/mayan then if I understood well your vision of France ? " More dark featured Spaniards http://web.mit.edu/rafal/www/Pics/Spaniards/pedro-grp.jpg Luciano Pavaroti could almost pass for Castro http://apnews.myway.com//article/20060707/D8IN7FU80.html " Luciano pavarotti looks celt ? Castro was of Galician parents, the Northern Spanish land where people come from Celts and play bagpipes. How is it possible that Cltic people can look like Pavarotti, you teached me they were tall, blond and red haired with pale skin ?... just for the stupidity of the game : some French people the famous french electronic musician Jean-Michel Jarre originary from Lyon: http://equinoxejmjarre.free.fr/Jean-Michel_Jarre.jpg famous french TV presentator Thierry Ardisson http://toutlemondeenparle.france2.fr/thierry/ta2.jpg famous french "comics" Jean-Marie Bigard and Michel Bouhgena and Coluche http://www.hahaha.com/photos/people/BigardJeanMarie.jpg http://www.thelin.net/laurent/cinema/photos/trois_hommes_et_un_coufin/michel_boujenah.jpg http://www.fantasfilm.com/image/d-coluche-tchao.jpg French famous actor Fernandel : http://www.cultureprix.com/data/imgvid/3476473083173s.jpg French young actor Romain Duris : http://fond-ecran.linternaute.com/image_wallpaper/duris1024.jpg the same with Audrey Tautou : http://perso.orange.fr/charmot.art/photos%20de%20stars/Romain%20Duris.jpg
First, sorry if I was too rude the first time but your comments hurt that silly nacionalism that everybody has inside. ;-)
<<they just seem to be more tanned due to the fact that the fotos were probably taken in summer.>> No, I was not talking about the tan but the faces. They don't look like the girls in your first pict. Who looked more like this one: http://www.gilliankirkwood.com/ercn86/Images/MunozA/MUNOZTROPHYWEB.jpg But I think that gypsies, moors and jews left an important heritage in Spain : http://www.olay.es/circulo/images/mujer.jpg <<Actually they look like most of my neighbours. >> I can actually say the same. Even some of my relatives match better in the European stereotype. <<I just gave my impressions. The way people acted with me was not the same aslo in Spain than in Costa Rica. In Spain I pass for being Spanish,>> It has something of logic. We don't see many europeans all the time as Spaniards do. We see almost only gringos. The way you act and dress many times makes the difference. I've seen Spaniards that didn't look like foreigners until they open the mouth. << while in Costa Rica most people though I was a gringo. >> Well the gringo stereotype is quite defined here, first very tall and very white, blonde hair, blue eyes and a wearing one of those horrible hawaiian shirts. Well the hawaiian shirt is not indispensable. The gringos as somebody mentioned has problems with the latino look like in the case of Banderas and other Spaniard actors and their roles as Latin Americans. I doubt that Depardieu would match that role. By the way, you are French you must know Asterix for sure, remember when Obelix and Asterix go to Hispania. Do you remember the stereotype that the creators used. They put it as a land of gypsies or something. Even were not the French who said "Africa begins at the Pyrenees" ? Do you think that you would pass for gringo in the U.S. ? Even lots of gringos are descendants of Italians, Germans, Africans, Latin Americans and Asians. By the way why don't you stop to fight LAA, both will create an endless debate. ;-)
Hola Tito, pues yo prefiero hablar en Espanol contigo
" It has something of logic. We don't see many europeans all the time as Spaniards do. We see almost only gringos. The way you act and dress many times makes the difference. " En Espana passo por ser Espanol porque la mayoridad de los franceses tienes rasgos simalares a los espanoles. La mayoridad del los alemanes o ingleses o hollandeses no passan por ser Espanol. A ellos la gente en las calles les hablan en Ingles - a mi la gente me habla en Espanol. Es lo mismo con los turistas de europa del norte en mi pais. Los grupos de turistas Alemanes, ingleses, hollandeses on Americanos passan por ser turistas (por la gran proporcion de gente rubia con piel clara y ojos claros que es bastante rara en francia, por el vestido tambien en el caso de los Americanos y alemanes), cuando los italianos por ejemplo pueden passan por ser franceses. Ademas, los turistas italianos generalmente hablan un poco frances, los norte Europeos usan quasi todavia el ingles con nosotros. " By the way, you are French you must know Asterix for sure, remember when Obelix and Asterix go to Hispania. Do you remember the stereotype that the creators used. They put it as a land of gypsies or something. Even were not the French who said "Africa begins at the Pyrenees" ? " hey ! no confundas todo !! Asterix es una historita, no es la realidad; no tiene nunca voluntad de ser historias fideles las realidades de los pueblos actuales, ni de ser una libro de historia... Es totalmente ficcion y es muy muy approximativo del punto de vista historico ! Comienzo a comprender ! Quizas LAA, desde el origen tiene en su mente la imagen de Francia que corresponde a la imagen de Galia que se ve en Asterix... Effectivamente, en asterix, los galos son dibujados como gente de rubios o de de cabello rojo, porque es un esteretypo que se applica alos actuales pueblos celtas como los Irlandeses - probablemente que los galos no se parecian mucho a eso estereotypo, y todavia los franceses y los galos no son el mismo pueblo. de la misma manera, antes de la llegada de los romano, el esteretypo era que los espanoles eran "iberos" - no se a que sembran los iberos, pero los dibujadores de asterix decidian applicar esta vision que obvidamente no corresponde a l arealidad de Espana. En Asterix en America, toda la gente es decribida como indios, quiere decir que los americanos son indias, no creo. solamente es una historieta comica. " Do you think that you would pass for gringo in the U.S. ? " Cuando fui en estados unidos, passe generalmente por ser Europeo, y tal vez por ser latino-Americano.
" Even were not the French who said "Africa begins at the Pyrenees" ? " "
Nunca he oido eso... eso probablemente era una frase provocativa. Para nosotros africa empieza despues del estrecho de Gibraltar, y muchas veces consideramos que Africa empieza realmente despues el sahara, Africa del norte es una cosa bastante differente.
It was Napoleon that said that "Africa begins at the Pyrenees".
The British also had an old phrase that said that "Africa starts at Calais".
LATIN
FRENCH ITALIAN ROMANIAN SPANISH Vos estis lux mundi non potest civitas abscondi supra montem posita. (Classical-Latin) Vous êtes la lumière du monde. Une ville située sur une montagne ne peut être cachée; (French) Voi siete la luce del mondo; una città posta sopra un monte non può rimaner nascosta. (Italian) Voi sînteţi lumina lumii. O cetate aşezată pe un munte, nu poate să rămînă ascunsă. (Romanian) Vosotros sois la luz del mundo: una ciudad puesta sobre un monte no se puede esconder. (Spanish) Classical-Latin & Spanish (*close equivalents) Vos (=vosotros) estis (=sois) lux (=lux) mundi (=mundo) non (=no) posita (=puesta) civitas (=ciudad) abscondi (=esconder) supra (=sobre) montem (=monte) potest (=puede) Other illa (=la) de ille (=del) una (=una) unum (=un) se/sui (=se)
I always thought the word "el" was derived from a possible Arabic source. As a student who studied Spanish for several years, I'm well aware of the long Moorish presence in medieval Spain. As far as all of this talk goes regarding Spaniards and Latin Americans, it is true that there are many Spaniards who can "pass" for Latin Americans, and personally I believe it to be due to this Moorish presence. Perhaps there were Gypsies who were also absorbed into the Spanish population as well, who may also account for any "darker" types found in Spain. A similar phenomenon is true for other southern European nations which were invaded by Moors/Turks, such as Italy and Greece. Most people in these countries look very European and are fairly pale-skinned, though a noticeable minority have that Middle Eastern look due to these invasions. Please don't think I'm being prejudiced towards southern Europeans by saying this either, after all I happen to be heavily southern European in ancestry (Italian). For the record, I've met several Spaniards who had visited the U.S. and for the most part they all looked like standard Europeans, it's just that they had darker hair than the average white American person, though a few of them had blondish/light brownish hair and blue/green eyes too. In fact, only one guy had the "dark" look that I mentioned above, and this was out of a group of 7 students or so.
I couldn't help but notice that Costa Rica was mentioned either. I've had the pleasure of visiting that country, and I can definitely say that regardless of how low the native population may have been relative to other parts of Central America, the population was most certainly heavily mestizo. The average Costa Rican looked neither like a Spaniard nor an Amerindian, but rather like a mix of the two, some people having more Amerindian traits, others more Spanish, and still others roughly 50/50. Additionally, the Spanish colonists also imported Africans as slaves into Costa Rica, thus some of the locals were visibly partially African in appearance. Indians from other Spanish colonies were also brought in as slaves, only further adding to the mix. I wouldn't doubt that most people had genes from all three groups, particularly in the northwestern province of Guanacaste near Nicaragua. Many of the locals honestly showed traces of African, Amerindian, and European Spanish ancestry. In any case, the vast majority of Costa Ricans looked to be some sort of mix. Also, when I was in Costa Rica, even with my rather Mediterranean appearance (dark hair, fair/light olive skin tone, green eyes, and southern European facial features), I was clearly a "gringo" heh. On the other hand, I'm quite sure that I would fit in Spain with no problem.
* Catalan: el
* French: le, l'- * Italian: il, l'- * Portuguese: o Old Spanish ela, from Latin illa
El is from ille. In the same way that English "the" derives from a semantically weakened, oft-repeated form of "that", the Romance articles (el, la, il, le) derive from Latin ille.
It would be odd, though not impossible, for such a basic word to be borrowed from another language. Apparently English did borrow its third-person plural pronoun, "they", from Danish.
They: [12th century. Old Norse þeir . Ultimately from an Indo-European word meaning “the, that,” which is also the ancestor of English the, this, that, and there.]
"El is from ille. In the same way that English "the" derives from a semantically weakened, oft-repeated form of "that", the Romance articles (el, la, il, le) derive from Latin ille."
He's right. Finally someone answers this question. Just a bit of description: the difference between Spanish "el" and "la, los, las" is that the first retains the ancient initial "i-" from Latin ("Il-le") and supresses the final "-e". "La, los, las" retain the second syllable (Latin) "Il-LA, Il-LOS, Il-LAS". (I don't know if there's some influence from Arabic "al", as some said before, but it seems possible. Most of the Arabic loanwords and influence on some words is old enough to have influenced "el" in an early form [Hispanic Latin to Old Spanish]. |