Does language define your identity?

viri   Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:13 pm GMT
correction: you must be
fab   Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:43 pm GMT
LAA
I agree with Tiffany is quite right. you complain about the fact that your compatriots are not aware of the variety of the Mexican population and stereotype it, but in the same time you are stereotyping spaniards thinking that they have all banderas's look.
The reality is that, even in Andalucia not all the people look like this very southern stereotype - you find a lot of blondes there. What I remark is that you seem to have the idea that all south Europeans look "dark"(small black haired black ayed people) the same way that USAmericans think that all mexicans look native indian.




" They just think that all Mexicans are short, dark, black haired, peasant farmers who come here to work for slave wages. When they see that I'm tall, with medium brown hair, and somewhat light skin, they "classify" me as European. Once they get to know me, and visit my home, and interact with me, they realize that I'm Mexican."

I don't understand why do you define your identity just by "mexican" ? why don't you say "I am Mexican-welsh-American " ?
And what do you say "they classify me as European" ? Isn't it where you said your ancestors are from ? so where is the problem, you said that you haven't mestizo herency, so you are just ethnically European, of a mix between Welsh and Spanish people, so competly white. You seem to not consider yourself to be white ? I don't understand.
viri amaoro   Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:16 am GMT
LAA said he wasmexican-american, not just american. Presley is japanese(?)-amaerican. I have two questions:

a) who are the real "americans", those without hyphens?

b)why does everybody must have a hyphen or fit into some racial/ethnic box? Can't you all be just americans, without any oficial register of your ancestry?
fab   Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:59 am GMT
" When they see that I'm tall, with medium brown hair, and somewhat light skin, they "classify" me as European. Once they get to know me, and visit my home, and interact with me, they realize that I'm Mexican."


So, should I conclude that you think that your Mexican identity is not made by look/Your ethny (which is European) but with your culture ?
I though that the identity was a racial thing for you ? How can you claim of being Mexican if you look like European ?
viri amaoro   Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:15 am GMT
People in America really do have warped concepts of judging people. How can someone look at a person and say "you look european"? How can they know, without the person in question telling anything about him/her, that someone is euroepan, mexican, etc? They might, broadly, look like this or like that, but in 99% of the cases you can never know.

Besides, what does the word "european" even means?? Does it it mean white? If so, George Bush is european, Ehud Olmert is european, Augusto Pinochet, Vicente Fox and iranian MOhamed Khatami are european. Is this insane or what???

That can only hapen if people in America already have inside them (as knowledge or stereotype) the necessary categories/boxes in which put the people they meet.

Why do you all have that obssession with classifying people, stereotyping, categorizing etc, finding ways to forcibly categorize people??... That "racial" frame of mind is really alienating to me, really, makes no sense whatsoever...
LAA   Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:31 am GMT
"I find it ironic, that you, who obviously know there are a wealth of phenotypes in places such as Mexico, still stereotype the phenotypes of other countries as you see fit. Anyway, we are getting off the topic of language and into ethnicity as usual."

I'm sorry, but this really gave me a good laugh. I could just imagine the frustrated tone in your voice as you said that. But I do acknowledge the variety of phenotypes in places like Spain and France also. I have openly recognized the differences between southern and northern regions within these countries, and the multitude of exceptions, and variations of physical appearances. It's just that these countries have large populations of "mediterranean" look which distinguishes them from other regions like Norway. It's much more common to find a dark haired, dark eyed person in Sicily, than it it is to find the same person in Sweden. As an example, would you think that Joe Pesci or Robert De Niro are Danes?

People in the U.S. are often shocked to learn that I'm Mexican, because I don't look like the typical Mexican. That's perfectly reasonable in my opinion. If I were another person, and I saw myself, I would not assume that I was Mexican. It's perfectly natural. I would assume that I was a Spaniard or Italian.

"What I remark is that you seem to have the idea that all south Europeans look "dark"(small black haired black ayed people) the same way that USAmericans think that all mexicans look native indian."

No, not at all. You should read my reply to Tiffany. If that's what you think, then you have misunderstood what I was trying to say.

"I don't understand why do you define your identity just by "mexican" ? why don't you say "I am Mexican-welsh-American " ? "

I do not really know my father's side of the family. I do not live with my father, and I rarely talk to him. Neither he, nor his family, has had any influence over my life. That's why I adopted my mother's maiden name. In addition, my father's genes have had very little if any impact on my phenotype. It's amazing how much I look like my mother. As I said, the only thing I inherited from my father in terms of how I look is his hair to some extent, and the shape of my legs and feet from the knee down. Other than that, I look just like a male version of my mother.

"And what do you say "they classify me as European" ? Isn't it where you said your ancestors are from ? so where is the problem, you said that you haven't mestizo herency, so you are just ethnically European, of a mix between Welsh and Spanish people, so competly white. You seem to not consider yourself to be white ? I don't understand."

Maybe, this is difficult for you to understand, being that you are not from the U.S. But, regardless of whether or not you're white skinned, if your family is from Mexico, then you are a Mexican. You are viewed the same way as a predominantly Indian-Mestizo. My uncle's wife is from Mexico City, and she has light brown hair, fair skin, and green eyes. But she is not considered "White" or "European" or "Caucasian". In a standardized test, or in a survey, she would have to check the box next to "Latino/Hispanic", which is seperate from "White/Caucasian". White people are descendants of Europeans are considered to be White, while an Argentinian or Mexican who look like me, would not be considered white, because we are grouped with the Indian-Mestizo majority from our countries of origin. Even though I realize that there are a variety of Mexicans, I still wouldn't recognize someone of my phenotype as being Mexican without having first talked with them, and if I was looking for a Mexican, I would look for someone with black hair, dark brown eyes, and relatively dark skin.

You ask why I don't identify myself as a Mexican/Welsh - American. There are two reasons. One, I don't identify with my father's family, as I hardly know them, and I don't respect my father, and that American sub-culture has no impact on shaping my personality. Secondly, I don't look anything like them. So I identify as a Mexican-American. My father's side of the family is mainly Welsh, with French and English as well. My father looks like a northern European, with blondish brown hair, blue eyes, long straight nose, Nordic head shape, etc. My mother has thick black hair, dark brown eyes, relatively light skin, and typical "Southern European" facial features. I look exactly like my mother, but male of course, and the only difference between her and I is our hair. My hair color is in between my mother and father's, so that it is medium brown. My skin is darker than either of my parents, because I surf on a weekly basis, and I'm a competitive swimmer, so only because of sun exposure. I consider myself Mexican, because Mexicans themselves are a product of the mixing of Spaniards and Native Americans, so that if my family are mainly Spaniards living in Mexico, then they are still Mexicans. I do have Native blood however. I would say that roughly speaking, my mother's family is about 10% native. Every once in a while, a recessive gene will pop up in the family, and one of us will look Mestizo.

"LAA said he wasmexican-american, not just american. Presley is japanese(?)-amaerican. I have two questions:

a) who are the real "americans", those without hyphens?

b)why does everybody must have a hyphen or fit into some racial/ethnic box? Can't you all be just americans, without any oficial register of your ancestry?"

Everyone is a "real" American, whether they're black, white, Iranian/Arab, East Asian, Philipino, or whatever. It's just that America is a country, despite what some naive people might claim, that is divided based on racial or socio-economic lines. So most people here don't really view Black-Americans in the same light that they do White-Americans, or other groups. America was only founded in the late 1700s, and is a nation entirely of immigrants. So, when immigrants landed on Ellis Island, or Boston fresh off the boat, they moved into neighborhoods with their fellow countrymen, who spoke like them, looked like them, and were from the same background. That is why to this day, everyone aside from the original "Anglo-Americans", who are referred to as WASPs (White-Anglo-Saxon-Protestants) belong to some sub-categorical definition, like Italian-American, or Irish-American, or Mexican-American. More broadly speaking, people are categorized into major "racial" groups like "Latino/Hispanic" (all the people of Ibero-America), "African-American", who constitute 10% of the population, and are mainly the descendants of Black slaves, "White", which is a very broad inclusive term, which generally only refers to the whole of Europe, but can sometimes only be applied to Northern Europeans, while some Spaniards, Italians, and Greeks are excluded. The term "White" is disputed in this country. Some people view it as synonymous with "European", while others contest that it should only apply to fair-skinned, Northern Europeans. Then there's the "Middle Eastern and North African" group, then there's the East Asian group, and then there's the Pacific Islander group, etc.
Tiffany   Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:23 am GMT
<<I'm sorry, but this really gave me a good laugh. I could just imagine the frustrated tone in your voice as you said that.>>

Why would you imagine frustration? I actually found it very interesting.
nun es   Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:44 am GMT
LAA,

" I don't really think you can simply identify yourself soley with your language, the way the Francophones on here claim. That just shows an arrogant disdain for reality. Of course you identify with your land, with people who look like you, the land of your ancestors, the land you were raised in. "


Which francophone said that ? I have only read that they said it was very important. I only see one guy who is arrogant, it is you. Who else said he didn’t need to go to a country to know how it is. Who claimed he was a 140 IQ?…
You really have a problem with human races, haven't you?
Tiffany   Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:02 am GMT
"who are the real "americans", those without hyphens"

Regardless of how you and I would like to think of America, LAA, the "Americans" in the Unites States are white people. Sure there are terms "Irish-American", "Italian-American", "German-American" etc, but those terms are by now mostly self-imposed definitions. The average "white" person won't be assumed to be any of these in particular. They will be assumed to just be "American".

However, if you do not look white, you will be easily labelled. Not all the time, but the labels "African-American", Asian-American" etc., while they can be self-imposed, are just as, if not more, likely to be imposed by others, because it is easy to identify people that look like these "ethnicities". They are of course still American, but the ease of identification makes labelling just that much easier. Snap of the finger really.
Guest   Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:14 am GMT
The Real Americans are the Native-Americans. However, even the native-americans are inmigrants from Asia & Russia. More then 6-8,000 years ago.
nun es   Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:32 am GMT
Tiffany, your overstating your statement.
Mario Fuocco di Bassa ter   Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:47 am GMT
ULTURA FRANCESA

La característica principal de ser francesa se relaciona más con ser mediterránea, espontánea, temperamental y ruidosamente. Al mismo tiempo, son herederos a la tradición cartesiano de la lógica.
Hay muchas maneras que los franceses piensan y que actúan diferentemente de culturas europeas norteñas. Están más cercano a cultura española e italiana que sus vecinos norteños.
La paga francesa una gran atención a comer, a beber, a discutir, a vestir, a hacer compras y social a entrar en contacto con a la gente en su vida de cada día. La cocina francesa famosa, la manera y la presentación con estilo en varias ocasiones son indicaciones claras de este carácter.
Las ciudades bien preservadas de Francia nos dicen más sobre su comprensión y respetan a su historia y cultura. Las aldeas, las ciudades y las ciudades francesas son reservado atractivas e históricas. Los viejos edificios se protegen siempre contra edificios modernos arquitectónico incomparables. Los edificios que miran modernos se fuerzan para permanecer en las cercanías de las ciudades.
Están enterados de la importancia de la filosofía en la vida social de las naciones. Francia es un ambiente muy productivo para los artes, la literatura y la filosofía desde el renacimiento. Acomodaron siempre a muchos artistas talentosos y gente creativa incluso de los países extranjeros y de las culturas.
París ha sido el centro cultural de la Europa por muchos siglos.
Francia es generalmente un país que da la bienvenida. Son también formales, pero el exterior París de la gente especialmente es muy amistoso y provechoso.
Hay gran tolerancia a las otras culturas. La Francia meridional ha sido efectuada por la cultura islámica extensivamente. Esto se ha reflejado obviamente a la respuesta y a la reacción de la gente en esta parte de la Francia.
La mayor parte de los franceses son orgullosos de su herencia nacional. Alguna de ellos expresa esta sensación de una manera chauvinista. Esta actitud llegó a ser más evidente durante los años de la recesión, especialmente cuando el nivel del desempleo alcanzó hasta el 12%.
fab   Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:13 pm GMT
" People in the U.S. are often shocked to learn that I'm Mexican, because I don't look like the typical Mexican. "

Yes, and they rightely did since you are not Mexican but an American anglophone with one mother of Mexican criollo Ancestry and a father of Welsh ancestry who choose to define himself soleyly as a Mexican-American.



" Maybe, this is difficult for you to understand, being that you are not from the U.S. But, regardless of whether or not you're white skinned, if your family is from Mexico, then you are a Mexican. You are viewed the same way as a predominantly Indian-Mestizo. My uncle's wife is from Mexico City, and she has light brown hair, fair skin, and green eyes. But she is not considered "White" or "European" or "Caucasian". In a standardized test, or in a survey, she would have to check the box next to "Latino/Hispanic", which is seperate from "White/Caucasian". White people are descendants of Europeans are considered to be White, while an Argentinian or Mexican who look like me, would not be considered white, because we are grouped with the Indian-Mestizo majority from our countries of origin... "

That is why all that grouping in "races/ethnies" is so confusing and meaningless, adn spread so much misconceptions about the realities about the cultures and peoples of the world.
Lolly   Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:42 pm GMT
Does Gisele Bündchen look Brazilian?
No!
Why?
Because she's German-Brazilian and not Portuguese-Brazilian or Afro-Brazilian.
LAA   Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:45 pm GMT
"Yes, and they rightely did since you are not Mexican but an American anglophone with one mother of Mexican criollo Ancestry and a father of Welsh ancestry who choose to define himself soleyly as a Mexican-American. "

I can't stress this anymore than I have Fab. Where do you get this "American-Anglophone" categorization from? Culturally, I am not Welsh or English-American at all, as my father and his family has had abosultely no impact on me at all. I never see them. I have been raised in a Mexican-American family, 100% of my life. You should come to my house, or to my family get-togethers, which we have every week, and see how "Anglo" the culture and environment is. If you called my grandfather an "Anglo-sajon" he'd probably punch you in the face! And secondly, I don't identify with my father so much in terms of ethnicity, because I look nothing like the man! I mean that. I look exactly like my mother and her side of the family. If you saw me, and my maternal uncles, you would think I was one of their sons. You can't even tell me and my father are related, based on looks that is.

"That is why all that grouping in "races/ethnies" is so confusing and meaningless, adn spread so much misconceptions about the realities about the cultures and peoples of the world."

I don't think so. I couldn't imagine a world without different ethnicities. I like variety. I love experiencing different cultures, different viewpoints, different phenotypes, different languages. I like how black people look so clearly different from white people, and all the different races for that matter. Each racial phenotype has its own beauty. If we didn't have different races, the earth would be as boring as all food tasting the same. It's thinking that one race is superior than another, or destined to exterminate the others that is alarming.