Southern European arrogance???

Yeah, you think it would be fashionable. Perhaps French is. But they seem to believe that Spanish is ugly. They either say it is too difficult, or that it is ugly. They have a strong German or Dutch accent when they speak it though, so I can see why they find it to be ugly. That Spanish is less appealing than German is practically inconcievable to me.

Another thing that shocks me is how tall the northerners are. I would say that 90% of the northern European men I've met are at least 6ft or over. I have a few years of growing left, but I'm 5'10, and they all seem to be very tall to me. There was a time when Americans had a significant height advantage over Europeans. That trend has since reversed, as Americans have stopped growing from generation to generation. The Dutch for example, are now on average, 6'1.

And Sigma, I was wondering something. Have you noticed how Europeans look different? They are essentially of the same stock as their kin in the U.S., but they have this look in their eyes, which just screams, "foreigner!".

* Correction. I met "Sergio", not "Sigma". I keep confusing you guys, since you're both Mexicanos and your names start with "s".

Bad boy, LAA. Sergio and Sigma are nothing alike.

I'm inclined to think that people of all backgrounds vary immensely from person to person (of course). A few weeks back I spent an evening with a Mexican guy, and we managed to converse by grabbing our friends and having them translate, and he paid me the compliment of remarking that he didn't feel shy or embarrassed about not being able to speak English around me, when he usually did around Americans.

But a woman I know was telling me that when her brother married a Mexican woman and worked hard to learn enough Spanish to address her parents politely and say a few words at a family gathering, they made all kinds of snide remarks about his poor grammar and accent ... until his wife told them how rude they were being.

So everyone's experiences are different, and it's hard to generalize.

From what I hear, the British are nowing turning away from learning French as their obligatory second language, and taking up Spanish with enthusiasm. They don't seem to think it's "ugly". (And maybe all those ads I saw for partying in Ibiza had something to do with it, too...)

While we're talking about language and attitude, it happens WITHIN groups as well. I've heard friends of mine who are hispanics with brown skin and black hair get annoyed that people automatically expect them to speak Spanish, when they don't, and hispanics who have pale skin and red or blond hair and are completely fluent in Spanish get all pissed off when they go to Juarez and have shopkeepers try to rip them off or condescend to them because they think they don't know what's being said. I had a friend who was from Northern NM of pure Spanish stock who had blond hair and hazel eyes and spoke Spanish perfectly who got lots of dirty looks from the darker members of the hispanic student organization she tried to join, because they assumed she was a "white" girl butting in where she didn't belong. (She didn't end up joining, after all -- the blatant prejudice put her off.)

So sometimes you just can't win...

zxczxc : « And Germanic doesn't equate to German. »
Das weiß ich schon, danke... Tu n'as pas saisi l'ironie.

zxczxc : « I can't speak a word of French. What you write is wasted on me. »
Auch das weiß ich schon. Du bist allerdings nicht allein auf diesem Forum : der namentliche Apostroph ist nur eine Stilfigur...

There is no Southern European arrogance. Norhtern Europeans, especially Anglo-Saxons come across as haughty, self-righteous, conceited, and arrogant. Most of them are as phony as a three dollar bill. At least Romance speaking Southern Europeans are more down to earth, and genuine. Most Southern Europeans are more talkative and are more apt to communicate with you. Southern Europeans are more honest and upfront with their emotions. The British notion of keeping a stiff upper lip and holding in your emotions is totally phony and ridiculous.

Well, I know now well your preferences a.p.a.m. However, it is sad you have let them get this far. Hope you can sort it out.

Cromwell was even less popular among the Irish. Didn't he try to wipe out Catholicism in Ireland? I believe it was Cromwell, among others who portrayed the Celts and their descendents (Irish) as inferior to the Germanic Englishmen. I believe Cromwell was largely responsible for trying to Protestantize Ireland. Cromwell not only disliked the Catholicism of the Irish, he tried to colonize much of Ireland with Protestant Englishmen. In essence, he was practicing "ethnic cleansing" in Ireland.

Tiffany, what are you refering to when you mention "my preferences"?

a.p.a.m. -
Your preference for Southern Europe and fighting prejudices with prejudices.

I don't find Northern Europeans to be phony. Yes, they are not as likely to display affection in public, or to show emotions, but this does not make them fake. That's just their temperment. Perhaps it goes along with the cold climate. Some have made that hypothesis.

And if, by many definitions, I'm an "Anglo-Saxon" because my first language is English and I grew up in the U.S., then I certainly do not fit your "Anglo-Saxon" profile. I'm about as outgoing, real, and brutally honest as they come. I'm a vivacious person, who really knows how to have a good time. People think I'm strange because I ask a lot of questions of people that others would not dare ask. I look them in the eye, I walk up and talk to strangers. I do crazy things in public. I'm very affectionate, well with the opposite sex at least. I don't hesitate to kiss family members. So how are Anglo-Saxons fake?

The French go to great lengths to look good, to speak eloquently, to go through ritual formalities, to have proper etiquite, etc. Does this mean they too are insencere? Phony? Fake? Or do you not include them in your SE definition?

I think south europeans,Portuguese and Spanish, use too many formalities. It is the senor,Dr., Excellency here and there. On the other hand the Danish tell you, without any sugar coating, what they think which makes them not too nice until you get used to them.

" After much thought, I have come to this conclusion about southern Europeans, or people of Romance speaking nations of Europe, IN GENERAL. If you only know and speak to them in English, (even when they understand English) they hold their nose high at you (figure of speech). But if you speak to them in Spanish, they suddenly come down to your level, and seem to respect you more. Do not tell me otherwise, because this is what I have experienced nearly everyday for the last month and a half. "


LAA, do you gues what ? Most French people think that English-speaking people do the same when they are in non-english-speaking places ! As soon as they meet someone who speak English : "oh great you speak english ! let's be friends". And if unfortunally you are not able to understand them and doesn't speak fluent English, then you're the "ultra-arrogant latin" who "refuse" to speak the "universal language" that everyone should speak of course...

LAA, you should also look at your compatriots and look at their way of acting before claiming that we are "arrogant". Maybe your problem lies in the fact that you see you English-Speaking as inferior more than that we see our as superior as yours - The reality is that most people from romance-speaking countries have a inferiority complex towards Northern Europeans and Anglo-saxons. The times of the superiority of the latin countries dates backs to the roman empire, 2000 years ago behind us - Now we are complelty aware that rules that lead the world (economics, international politics, communication languages, medias) are lead by anglophone cutlures, not latin ones. We don't have the power of the English-speaking nations - It is not surprinsing that some of us are afraid to loose what we are due to this domination - and can, unfortunally - developp a sense of agressivity against English-speaking peoples.

Maybe you don't understand that a good part of the rudeness you experienced may have been the consequence of the of the rudeness of some English-speaking people that those "arrogant latins" had experienced in their own country.

Rudeness or arrogance is not always something that someone can have conscience when acting, because in other countries the social rules are not the same - things that are considered good in one place is considered very bad in another.

something that could interested you about the perception of the "french rudeness toward Americans" that a lot of your compatriots complain about. :

http://gofrance.about.com/od/culture/
In latin countries we have millions of tourists from English speaking nations - a lot of them are respectfull, but I should say that the majority are not and consider our countries almost as theirs. - Including of course that everything should be done with them in English - not using the politness formalities "bonjour, aurevoir, pardon, merci", that are absolutly necessary to be respected. The notion of respect is very strong in mediterranean countries, it should be done


Is this some sort of "civilized Roman vs. Barbarian" mentality? Or "Latin superiority complex"?

basic recipe of politeness in France, just consist in avoiding the 2 behaviours that are considered ultra-rude for french people : 1. Speaking directly in English without asking if the person know that language
2. Not saying "Bonjour, excusez moi" (hello, I'm sorry) before asking any question. (And saying "merci" after)

http://gofrance.about.com/cs/culture/a/rudeness.htm

3. Allez vous faire foutre.

Les 2 1ers « Guest » : c'est vrai que les codes socioculturels sont une barrière invisible pour ceux qui ne prennent pas la peine de les identifier.

Il est vrai que s'adresser à un inconnu (pour demander l'heure, le chemin etc) sans dire un *MOT* de politesse (bonjour, pardon, excusez-moi etc) est ici généralement (mais pas toujours) perçu comme un *MANQUE* d'éducation ou un signe de *VULGARITÉ*.

Pour un homme, s'adresser à unE inconnuE sans un *MOT* de politesse relève du suicide social ou de l'autisme profond...

Alors faire tout ça en anglais, surtout quand on parle *TRÈS* ou *TROP* fort, ça tourne forcément à la caricature !