Breton Language - Celtic Language under political pressure

Guest   Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:40 am GMT
It it a bit hypocritical of the French though to champion the use of languages other than English on an International scale whilst treating minority languages within their own borders with contempt.
nico   Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:21 pm GMT
"Guest Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:40 am GMT
It it a bit hypocritical"


And you are? You were able to put "I hate spams" in the field for that, but not your name.



"other than English on an International scale"
Sure, 60 000 000 of french people are everyday of their life on "International scales". How can you write such a stupid post?
greg   Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:36 pm GMT
« Guest » : « It it a bit hypocritical of the French though to champion the use of languages other than English on an International scale whilst treating minority languages within their own borders with contempt. »

Et c'est encore plus hypocrite (quoique lourdaud) d'énoncer de telles contre-vérités comme si elles étaient endossées par chacun des 63 millions de Français.



Quant à Meijse, je crois que nous sommes confrontés à un troll aux multiples pseudonymes.
Goldoni   Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:57 pm GMT
French is disappearing. I bet more people in Americas speak Guarany than French. Montreal is pratically a bilingual city, all commerce is done in English. Only rural areas of Quebec are French-speaking.

If Canada splits up, it will join the USA and Quebec can be a new French Guiana, an isolated and forgotten French district.
Benjamin   Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:07 pm GMT
« If Canada splits up, it will join the USA »

Why?

« and Quebec can be a new French Guiana, an isolated and forgotten French district. »

Québec isn't 'French' in the sense that it's part of the Republic of France, like Guiana is.
nico   Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:15 am GMT
Dear Goldoni,

When we see how different are the politicians in USA and Canada, i doubt the Canada would like to join the USA.
In fact, i don't see the relation between what we are talking about and your view of politic. Maybe you can tell us more precisly what you mean? I don't see why Quebec would join the France, you seem to compare it with Guiana which is a situation far away different.

"French is disappearing", it depends where. In some areas yes, in some others like in many East european countries, that's the opposite. There is real revival...And i am not talking about some south american countries where french is one of the alternative to make buziness with somebody else than anglo-saxon countries. If you go to Argentina, Mexico you could notice that french is really successfull and in some ways Italian also.
suomalainen   Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:34 am GMT
Dear Nico,

Do you mean that there are no languages called Breton and Occitan? Is the fact wrong that there are still close to half a million people in France whose mother tongue is Breton (unfortunately, mostly elderly people). If children learn at school that all true French citizens speak only French, of course they then become ashamed of their parents and their roots and try to be as similar as possible to other people.
This used to be the policy even here in Finland with regard to Saami. Now when the government has recognized what a terrible loss it would be if we lost the fascinating and unique Saami languages, it is a hard work to restore what was broken during the previous decades of oppression and assimilation. It is much easier to break down than repair. I think we would have nothing to boast if we were able to make Saami speak only Finnish and make them think that in fact they have always been Finns.
In my mind, the first step in human minority policy is to admit the existence of ethnic minorities. The second step is to recognize that language shift is due to the attitude of the majority and education policy that has made ethnic minorities despise their own (or their grandparents´) mother tongue. The third step would be to turn the wheel: when society begins to appreciate minority languages, they also are able to see the value in their own languages and traditions, and this valuable part of mankind, linguistic variation, can be preserved to coming generations.
nico   Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:07 am GMT
Suomalainen,

"o you mean that there are no languages called Breton and Occitan? Is the fact wrong that there are still close to half a million people in France whose mother tongue is Breton (unfortunately, mostly elderly people)."

Can you tell me when you found these inforpmations, i can assure that there aren't an half million of french who speak breton.
What you don not seem to understand is the fact the France is not made of french and minorities but the france is made of french. Every french has an origin from somewhere in France, Provence, Bretagne, Pays basque, Catalogne, Auvergne, Savoie, Flandres, Alsace, Vendée, Normandie, Corse... you van be breton, i don't deny it, but BEING BRETON IS NOT A NATIONALITY. There is only one one nationality in France it is french. This is the only one internationally aproved by the international laws.

All these languages are close to be dead in France, good? bad? France has a long history of assimilation, during its history it had to assimilate people from different cultures, from the Basque to the ALsacien to the flemmish to the savoyard.... Having a commmon language has been a necessity especially after the 1st world war.

You can learn the language of your ancestors if you want, when i was at scholl it was possible to learn occitan, a few child did it. no, since a few years in Europe there is a revival wich consists to separate the people in a same country (see Spain, Yugoslavia, East Countries...). This is the beginning of Nationalism which are DANGEROUS. I don't think we need that in France.

As i said and i reapeat it: all the bretons speak french today like all the auvergnats, provençaux............

So can you show me the source which says 1/4 a million of french speak breton (mother toungue) today?
suomalainen   Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:21 am GMT
Nico,
according to Wikipedia there are still 300 000 people in France who speak Breton as their mother tongue (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton). In Finland there are 300 000 people whose mother tongue is Swedish. They call themselves 'finlandssvensk' (Finland´s Swedes), but they are also 'finländare' (Finlanders, people who live in Finland). They are quite loyal Finnish citizens who feel that Finland is their home country. They have schools where the instruction language is Swedish (they learn also Finnish), in parishes where they make up at least 8% of the population all public texts are in two languages (the language of majority first) and they get service in their mother tongue from authorities. There are newspapers, radio and TV broadcasting in Swedish.
I don´t think there is anything dangerous in this; I think that this kind of situation is next to ideal for a minority ín a majority society. It is important even for the majority because they can learn to accept difference.
I hope that pupils in all countries would learn at school facts about ethnic minorities in their home country, to respect diversity and to consider it as richness instead of threat. National pride can make things look quite the opposite, especially after such critical periods as a world war or when there are disputes concerning a region, like Alsace-Lothringen.
You mention Spain, Yugoslavia and East Countries as examples of dangerous nationalism. In all these countries there was a period of dictatorship and intolerance that lasted for decades during which healthy and balanced minority policy couldn´t develop. Perhaps riots in France last year were partly due to the unification policy of your country that doesn´t admit existence of minorities (in this case of immigrants).
Benjamin   Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:48 am GMT
The situation which Suomalainen describes in Finland is a bit similar to the situation in Wales. Although native Welsh-speakers are a minority in Wales (perhaps 15%), there are schools in which Welsh is the language of instruction. They learn English there as a second language. Likewise, in the majority of schools in Wales at which English is the language of instruction, everyone learns Welsh as the second language. Equally, most (perhaps all) government information and road signs are written in both English and Welsh.

Although I don't agree with all of the practices which promote Welsh in Wales, I do not see anything dangerous about supporting use of the Welsh language alongside English in Wales at all.
nico   Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:24 pm GMT
suomalainen,


What do you mean by "national pride"? You can be proud of what you have done, but you cannot be proud for being breton, french or whatever you are from. I am not proud (or ashamed) to be french or provençal. It is just like that. I don't understand that feeling which consists to be proud for such things like that.

It seems right that 300 000 people speak breton in France (more or less), 64% are more that 64years old. But i don't see why the state should teach breton at schools.


"You mention Spain, Yugoslavia and East Countries as examples of dangerous nationalism. In all these countries there was a period of dictatorship and intolerance that lasted for decades during which healthy and balanced minority policy couldn´t develop."
In France there has been also some intolerances, anti semitism, inquisitions, war of religions, fachism during the 2nd world war...

That is especially because there has been such many things in France, it is out of question. If Breton does not really find its place in France, it is only for geographical reasons, they are originally from what is now England.
Nico   Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:13 am GMT
Adam,

Only in your dreams Adam, only...
suomalainen   Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:09 am GMT
Well, I don´t dream that France (or French) would disappear, loss of any language is a great tragedy because every language contains tremendous amount of invaluable information, it is the memory of an ethnic group with echoes from ancient times. I hope we would agree on this but it seems that it is not the case.
If a language is not taught at school, it is very hard for it to survive in modern world. On the other hand, if children get instruction in their mother tongue, prospects for the language are usually quite positive. We can see this from Welsh which is getting stronger all the time, and young people can the language better than the middle generation that didn´t have the opportunity to learn Welsh at school.
Now would be the last time to save Breton but France doesn´t seem to bother. I mean with "national pride" what I said: an attitude that doesn´t care about teaching pupils about ethnic minorities and supporting of their languages, that claims that "only a nation with one language can be one-minded" (this was slogan of the so called "genuine Finns" in Finland in 1930´s). I think it is intolerance not to grant any rights to the traditional ethnic minorities, and even deny their existence. In this respect, France has one ally in EU: Greece.
You mean that Bretons are immigrants from Britain. Finland´s Swedes have migrated from Sweden 500 - 1000 years ago. The time is so long that they have become well rooted in their new country, and therefore I feel they are a genuine minority here. On the other hand, Celtic languages where spoke Celtic languages before the Roman conquest, so in that way the roots of Breton extend further back in history in France than the roots of 'langue d´oil' .
We can´t probably get further with this topic because Frenchmen who have to be loyal to the ideals of their country are bound to defend the policy of France of "one country - one language" (although they don´t demand this in those countries where French are in minority).
Nico meant that the situation in Quebec, Belgium and Switzerland is different. It certainly is, but I think this is circular reasoning: if the assimilation policy of France has lead to very weak position for minorities, this position is used as a proof that you have done right and the minorities don´t need any support from the society.
The future of Breton and Occitan is in your hands, but when they are gone (which will take place if your additude doesn´t change), it is a sad day for people allover in the world who appreciate linguistic diversity.
suomalainen   Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:59 am GMT
a correction to the message above:
"On the other hand, Celtic languages where spoke Celtic languages before the Roman conquest, so in that way the roots of Breton extend further back in history in France than the roots of 'langue d'oil'.

should be:
"On the other hand, Celtic languages were spoken in France before the Roman conquest; in that way the roots of Breton in your country extend further back in history than the roots of 'langue d'oil'."

"has lead" - should be: "has led"
nico   Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:18 pm GMT
suomalainen,

The fact the use of a language symbolizes your identity is relative. What i mean is, your identity and the way oyu feel it has been structured by some events which are most of the time artificial. I feel french today but if i was born in the same city 200 years before, i would feel provençal. Why? Because your feeling about a "national" identity is a pure product of politic made by some politicians during the history. The fact you use a language or another one does not have any importance.

The loss of a language is sad, that is true but it is like that. Everything dies and some other things born. It is like some people who think that a masterpiece in art cannot disappear, never dies. but this is wrong, evrything dies...

Is it really keeping alive a language when it is made artificially?
what makes alive a language? the fact you learn it at school? So why don't we speak latin all other the occident world instead of english? In many countries we used to learn latin before english.
You will tell this is pessimistic, it is not.
At list, in France, most of the people consider that if you had to learn a language which is not french, there would be a miss of equality. Everybody in France must speak french...
But, believe me, the feeling you have about an identity is purely artificial. Of course you are finnish, but that is all. If you were born in Germany you would be german...
These feelings are purely artificial, that is waht some people like Adam did not realize, he is so proud to be english. But this is so stupid, he could be something else.

Some people in Britany wants the breton to be taught at school, but do most of the people really want it?
The history of France about the languages is very special, having the same language in France has been very important for its unity. I gave you the example of Yugoslavia because its case is really close (not the same) with the french history (some centuries before). If we did not have a language in common in france, the wars would never been finished. Is it necessary to show you the geography of France. Its place in the north and south of Europe with many powerfull neighbours has forced the country to built an identity there was not in the past. Why? Because some people in France felt closer to catalans, to basques, to spanish, to italians (piemont, and Aoste precisely), to germans, to swiss...

If we kept our respective languages, the unity could not exist. That is what happened in Yugoslavia, of course as i said the situation is not 100% the same.

About the use of french in the other french speaking countries, you can notice all the problems of intolerance there is.