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Breton Language - Celtic Language under political pressure
"On the other hand, Celtic languages were spoken in France before the Roman conquest; in that way the roots of Breton in your country extend further back in history than the roots of 'langue d'oil'."
agree with you except the basque area.
Nico,
thank you for your response. Certainly it is difficult to preserve a language and teach it at school if people themselves don´t want this. Again, we can ask why the situation is like this. There is a Finnish-speaking minority in Northern Sweden (now they think that they have in fact a language of their own, 'meänkieli' = "our language"). Sweden practised very hard assimilation policy in the beginning of the 20th century, and children were forbidden to speak Finnish at school even during the breaks. Children were punished if they were caught speaking Finnish. Thus, parents began to speak Swedish to their children, so that they wouldn´t run into troubles at school. Because Finnish didn´t have any official position in the society, people also began to think that it is useless. Parents could even be proud if their children could only Swedish. Now we could ask what the reason was why people turned their back to their mother tongue. I think it is evident it was because of the minority and education policy of the authorities. Now Sweden has taken a different position, and the municipalities of Northern Sweden try to restore Finnish (or 'meänkieli') for the young generation. There is a minority language competition of EU in October, and 'meänkieli' is one of the languages that take part (others are Saami, Basque, Catalan, Celtic languages from the British Isles etc.) If we show with this kind of signals that we appreciate minority languages, one can be pretty sure that it will change the attitude of the minorities about the value of their language. I understand the meaning of a common language in France. As far as I know, there really were difficulties 100 years ago with school instruction, because of the multitude of diverse dialects that children spoke. Still, I think it would be possible to combine two things: having a common 'lingua franca' in the country and keeping the languages of the minorities alive. We can also remember the situation in Switzerland: they speak German, French and Italian, but still none of these groups wants to separate from their home country and join their neighbours where their respective languages are spoken, because the system of autonomous cantons gives a secure position to languages and cultures. Sweden thought that they have to assimilate the Finns in north in order to secure their loyality. I would say that culture autonomy for minorities is a much more human way to do this: it will preserve linguistic diversity and make minorities feel they are equal with the majority population without having to lose their special ethnicity.
suomalainen,
Is Swiss a good example, i really don't know. As you can notice they aren't in the European community. I think of course everybody has the right to speak his own language, no doubt about that. The problem is: what would happen if all the languages would be officialized in the european community. Isn't it dangerous. You can notice there are more and more signs of countries which wnat to be independant, and unfortunaztely this comes (for some, not all) with signs of racism. If Spain is divided, if the same happens into France, into Belgium, into UK, Italy, Finland.......... What would happen in Europe? Hace you seen the ex USSR, some places are a total disaster economically, some others are in war (tchetcheny...). If you look about some contries like Belgium, Yugoslavia, Spain (i konw you said it was bad examples but they still are there, and the result is a little bet scarry, especially Belgium... Another thing about the riots in France, the riots were not an ethnic riot, some people who are "white" (we don't really use that term) were in these riots. In fact, if there has been these riots it is because these people have been abandonned, no jobs, dirty subburbs... they wnat to be integrated. The thing in France is that, there is not and there has never been any model of integration, the people who emigrated in France all along the history were integrated by themselves (Itlains, portugueses, algerians, spanish...). In fact these kind of riots are not new in France, it happend often all along its history. And those who siad the model of integration does not work in France are all wrong because there are not any model of integration.
Nico,
Well, I think that we could compare the situation in France with UK and Germany. In Germany Sorbian is used as instruction language, like Welsh in Wales. In my mind this doesn´t threaten at all the integraty of the country, but instead the fascinating minority languages will be preserved, representans of the minority can keep their self-esteem without having to be similar to the main population and the majority can learn to tolerate difference. When the minority (like Sea the Saami in Northern Norway) has lost its language because of assimilation policy of the society, people can belittle their own traditional language and culture, in order to affirm (even themselves) that they haven´t lost anything important and they aren´t worse people though they can´t any more speak Saami.
nico to Suomalainen: “When you meet somebody from France he won't tell you i am breton, he will tell you i am french. That is all. “
Nico, I don’t mean to be offensive but please don’t speak for me either. Suomalainen, I am Breton. Recent surveys (see links below) suggest that 40% of people in Brittany see themselves as “being Bretons first” (20% as “being French first”). According to another survey, 28% see themselves as “breton citizens first” (32% as “french citizens first”). Not surprisingly, these figures are even higher in Western Brittany (the historical Breton speaking area). http://www.csa-tmo.fr/dataset/data2K/opi20000905a.htm http://www.ouest-france.fr/dossiers/bretons_article.asp?IdArt=79249&IdThe=&IdCla=4200&NomCla=Sondage&PageCour=1&PageTot=1 Nico, regional identity in Brittany is quite strong. You better get used to it. Feel lucky and happy that the overwhelming majority of Bretons feel French as well and are loyal to France. By the way, I feel French too. Nico: “the bretons, the provençaux or whoever you want speak french at home, even the corsicans. […] . Those who tell you the opposite are liars. I have many colleagues who are form Bretagne and they don't only speak french.” Call me a liar then, but the fact is I know some people although few and mostly elderly who use their native Breton at home and/or with their friends. About your colleagues: It really depends on how old you are and where you are from in Brittany. You are more likely to hear Breton language in the countryside of Middle Brittany, Tregor (Bro Treger), Bigouden country (Bro vigoudenn) and Léon (Bro Leon). Nico: “So can you show me the source which says 1/4 a million of french speak breton (mother toungue) today?” No problem. http://www.insee.fr/fr/insee_regions/bretagne/rfc/docs/Oc92art3.pdf As you can see, these figures come from an official French national institute. ~20% of people in Western Brittany can still speak the language. Breton though gravely endangered is still alive. Moreover ~10 000 children learn and practise Breton in bilingual schools. Nico: “Some people in Britany wants the breton to be taught at school, but do most of the people really want it?” Thirty years ago, hardly any Breton would have even thought about it or considered it. In spite of many difficulties (see Josselin’s post), new French-Breton bilingual classes/schools open every year. I guess you can say that more and more people want it then. I also think a majority of people in Brittany would agree with parents’ rights to choose Breton-French (or Gallo-French) bilingual education if that is what they want. By the way, in 2004, the Brittany Council members gave a unanimous support to a plan for the safeguarding of the Breton and Gallo languages. The objective is to train new teachers, so a total of 20 000 pupils can be taught in bilingual schools by 2010. You might think it is ‘artificial’ to learn Breton at school. Well, that’s where my father learnt French (he is a breton native speaker).
Nico: ''As you can notice "Meijse" is a good example of what you must call tolerance in Canada.''
Yes indeed…To be honest, his attitude towards French-speaking Québecs reminds me of the contempt some French (not all of them of course) have for minority languages in France. french: ''If the Breton want their independance, why don't they go back to the british isles (English area). […] So why don't you shut up and go to the UK.'' (french) I suppose that ''french'' is a good example of how the ‘one country-one language’ policy has spread tolerance all over France?
Yann;
"Nico, regional identity in Brittany is quite strong. You better get used to it. Feel lucky and happy that the overwhelming majority of Bretons feel French as well and are loyal to France. By the way, I feel French too. " That is the problem, an identity is artificial only. I don't have to feel lucky and happy that the overwhelming majority of Bretons feel French. I don't care, i am french because i was born there, tthat is all. I am not proud or ashamed to be french. It would have been the same if i was born in England, or Germany. For me being french or anything else does not have any importance. Bretons have never been a nation, has never been internationally recognized. And i don't see why it shoulod starts especially with the dangers which could occures with.
" lot of people outside of England frequently refer to Wales as "a part of England". "Oh," they say, "Wales is in England." You never hear people say that about Scotland."
Strictly speaking, Wales IS a part of Enland, and it has been since around the 13th or 14th centuries. Scotland and Northern Ireland hace different legal systems and different paper money than England (but coins are the same) whereas England and Wales have the same legal system and the same paper money as each other. Welsh teams compete in the English FA Cup and the English football league. Cardiff City, who play for Wales' capital city, are top of the English Championship and look like theywill be playing in the English Premiership next year. The England cricket team is actually the England and Wales cricket team. Scotland has its own Parliament, but Wales doesn't. It just has its own Assembly. Even if Scotland becomes independent, I think Wales and England will be forever joined together.
Adam : « Even if Scotland becomes independent, I think Wales and England will be forever joined together. »
Tiens, les certitudes de notre anglolâtre de service semblent se lézarder.
Meijse <<After all, France literarily SOLD Quebec the way Mexico sold California and Russia sold Alaska. There are no use crying over spilled milk. I don't know why Quebeckers keep admiring France but France don't give a damn about them, they condier Quebec dialect ''hilly, redneck, ugly''. No wonder why Celine Dion opted for English.>>
Quebec(French North America) was not sold it was awarded to Britain after the French and Indian wars (which was the North American Phase of thew war that was going on in Europe at that time) through treaty which the Netherlands(your country) approved. Eventually after the Napoleonic Wars, Cape Colony (A dutch colony) was transferred to Britain (Now ask yourself why the Dutch people keep on idolizing the Brits). Are you envy of the way Quebeckers admire the French because Afrikaners no longer speak Dutch? It was the fault of your country because of wrong bargain, and being indifferent with the Afrikaners by not helping them in times of trouble. And then here you are criticizing the the very close bonding between the French and the French Canadians that does not exist between the Dutch and the Afrikaners. As for Celine Dion, she sang only in English because of one reason, to capture a huge English audience to market her songs. In case you don't know, she still records an album in French. Have you read her biography? It was mentioned there that she declined an award because there was an "English Singer" label in it. She's very proud of her French heritage and she would not easily give it up because she's a direct descendant of Charlemagne. So the next time you post a message, research first. Ok? |