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Spanish Pronunciation
<<What is River Plate Spanish?>>
River Plate Spanish is, well, Spanish as it is spoken in the River Plate (Río de la Plata) area. That includes the cities of Buenos Aires, Montevideo and Rosario and their surrounding areas of influence. It is therefore a Latin American dialect/accent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Plate_Spanish
<<Is it like the "modern sort" of Spanish that is spoken in Spain?>>
No, not at all. I don't know what this "modern sort" would be anyways.
<<Also, what is "Registro"? >>
Record, register.
<<If the name Joaquín is pronounced like you said it is, I wonder if the name Joachim sounds similar when pronounced. >>
I don't know about "Joachim". It seems Portuguese to me, but then again, I'm not that familiar with Portuguese.
<<What is Canjear? >>
Kahn-heh-ar. Exchange
<<What is Jalea? >>
Ha-leh-ah. Jelly, marmalade
<<what is Caja? >>
Kah-ha. Box
More or less. :-)
Aldo: since the topic of the thread is the production of the sound corresponding to J in "Joaquin", how do you pronounce them? [h] as it is suggested by your "phonetic" transcriptions, or [x] (the hard friction sound). Also, where are you from?
It's easy to figure if you base the sound of the Spanish "J" comparing it to the sound of laugh in English, so:
Ha ha ha! = Ja ja ja!
Ho ho ho! = Jo jo jo!
That simple my friends. :-)
<<That simple my friends. :-)>>
My entire point was that it's not that simple. I'm a native speaker of Spanish and my "ja" sounds very different from "ha" as pronounced by an English speaker. It's perfectly acceptable if you use either sound, but it does give you a distinct accent in Spanish, a Caribbean one, if you use [h].
I'm a native Spanish speaker too, and the problem here is that you won't find exactly the same sound in English since, unlike Spanish, a letter could have more than one sound, sometimes way subtle but enough to change the meaning or to make the word unintelligible.
Anyway any English speaker never won't learn a perfect or correct or whatever Spanish pronounciation taking his own language as reference without listening the proper Spanish way. Although this applies to any language speaker, so if the person can't hear us pronouncing it, it's easier to say, pronounce the "J" of Joaquín with the "H" from Santa's laugh: Ho-ah-keen, and the "O" as one sound not as "ow", that will be enough, for sure, Spanish won't require more precise accuracy, I think.
Aldo, is it a possibility that you could put an approximate audio pronunciation, so I could tell the difference between yours and Gabriel's pronunciation of Joaquin? I would kindly appreciate it.
Annabelle, fortunately I found this one. That's Argentinian accent but the name "Joaquín" is clear enough although the video is horrible.
The guy says, "...compañera Anabela Messina estuvo a solas con Joaquín Sabina..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEI_fuoB1jU
Spaniards pronounce differently the letter "J" like from the bottom of the throat. Pay attention to the second 53 to 56, this Spaniard guy, Sabina, says "...y la tercera es que se acabe pronto VirGencita..." In the word "virgencita" (virgin) the letter "G" sounds the same as the letter "J" but the way how Spaniards pronounce it.
Hope this helps.
<<That's Argentinian accent but the name "Joaquín" is clear enough>>
And that's the same type of pronunciation I use in my recording. It's not the English "ho ho" sound [h] you referred to in earlier posts.
<<Spaniards pronounce differently the letter "J" like from the bottom of the throat.>>
Differently from whom? Certainly not differently from Argentinians. It's [x] for both.
<<And that's the same type of pronunciation I use in my recording. It's not the English "ho ho" sound [h] you referred to in arlier
posts. >>
A bit less a bit more, Gabriel, who cares ?
As I said before such precision that you pretend is irrelevant to be understood in Spanish.
<<Differently from whom? Certainly not differently from Argentinians. It's [x] for both.>>
It is way different from any country in Latin America. Spaniards pronounce the "J", I didn't want to say it this way, but let's say, like trying to free the throat from phlegm. If you can't note the difference I think you are not a native Spanish speaker.
I'm not familiar with phonetic symbols since it seems that they vary widely from dictionary to dictionary, but "x" in Spanish sound like "ks" except when it's the first letter of the word like in the name "Xinia" or "xilófono" which sounds like a "S".
<<A bit less a bit more, Gabriel, who cares ?
As I said before such precision that you pretend is irrelevant to be understood in Spanish. >>
Evidently, some people care. I agree with you that an approximation of the sound is sufficient for learners who want to be understood. However, the question that triggered the thread was about the actual, native, pronunciation of a name with a certain sound. Also, for many people, the goal is not just "being understood" but being "native-like".
<<It is way different from any country in Latin America.>>
This is simply false. Last time I checked Argentina and Uruguay are in Latin America. We pronounce "Joaquín" just as Spaniards, with [x] rather than [h] as in other Latin American countries.
<<I didn't want to say it this way, but let's say, like trying to free the throat from phlegm. If you can't note the difference I think you are not a native Spanish speaker. >>
Not only can I perfectly note the difference, but I can natively produce the sound (as in the recording I posted that you are free to analyze) and I can accurately describe it as a voiceless velar fricative.
<<I'm not familiar with phonetic symbols since it seems that they vary widely from dictionary to dictionary, but "x" in Spanish sound like "ks" except when it's the first letter of the word like in the name "Xinia" or "xilófono" which sounds like a "S".>>
I explained this many times already, I suspect you don't really read the posts before replying. [x] is the international phonetic symbol for the sound we're dealing with here. It does NOT represent the sequence [ks]. Square brackets mean phonetic transcription, by the way. [h] is the international phonetic symbol for the other Latin American pronunciation, the one I suspect you have, since you're so blindly unaware of the widespread use of [x] in Latin America.
<<However, the question that triggered the thread was about the actual, native, pronunciation of a name with a certain sound. Also, for many people, the goal is not just "being understood" but being "native-like". >>
Again, nobody will get it without listening exactly the sound as, it seems, you are pretending.
<<We pronounce "Joaquín" just as Spaniards,...>>
We ? Who ? Nobody pronounces the letter "J" and "G" like Spaniards unless you are one.
<<Not only can I perfectly note the difference, but I can natively produce the sound>>
Well, decide, it is different or not.
<<[x] is the international phonetic symbol for the sound we're dealing with here. >>
Do you really think that is useful ? If somebody doesn't know the precise sound of the symbol, how could you explain how it sounds. Now we would have not one problem here but two.
Annabelle, the sound of "J" is [h] for Latin America and [x] for Spain, got it ?
Mmm...I don't think so.
My dearest Aldo:
You are right. For someone who doesn't know the international phonetic alphabet (IPA), a recording is more useful than a symbol. That's why I provided one for Annabelle's sake (you can find it if you go back to all those posts you skipped).
I think it's exceedingly clear from the context that when I said "we", I meant Argentinians and Uruguayans. Let me be even more clear: I'm Uruguayan. I pronounce "Joaquin" with that sound "from the bottom of the throat" as you described. That description is so vague that it is useless, which is why it's better to say it's a velar fricative. My pronunciation does not differ greatly from the pronunciation of the Spaniards I've met and listened to. It is strikingly different, though, from the pronunciation found in other Latin American countries, mainly in the Caribbean. Those speakers use a voiceless glottal fricative, [h] (a sort of soft whisper).
In terms of numbers of speakers, I think [x] outnumbers [h] in Latin America, given the fact that it's found in the huge cities of Buenos Aires and Mexico and their surrounding areas of influence.
To me, being Latin American, [x] is normal, [h] sounds foreign.
Which sound do you have, Aldo? Where are you from?
Acording to Wikipedia articles about regional variants of Spanish and some other sources, the [h] is predominant in the Caribbean (Cuba, Porto Rico, Dominican Republic), Central America, Venezuela, Colombia, Equador, Mexican coasts, Andalusia and Canary Islands. The velar [x] is common the Mexican interior, Argentina, Peru, Uruguay, Bolivia, Chile, Paraguay and of course Northern and Central Spain.
Check this clip from Venezuelan TV about the speech of Hugo Chávez in UN where you can clearly hear the [h] both from him and the newscaster
So both sounds are to be find can be found both in Spain and Latin America and are common enough.
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