Beginning to define the difference

Pos   Sat May 26, 2007 11:44 am GMT
<Travis, ne nous casse pas les couilles avec tes gribouillis hideux. >

It seems rather impolite to write messages in any other language than English on an English language learning site. Do you wish to appear impolite?
Uriel   Sun May 27, 2007 12:30 am GMT
<<So would this be your view?

"Prescriptivism is based on the view that one variety of language is inherently superior to others and that this more highly valued variety should be imposed on the whole of a particular speech community."

Would you say that there is one variety of language which is INHERENTLY superior to others? If so, which variety, wand what makes it INHERENTLY superior? >>

Lord, do I need a whole mission statement? ;)

Rules of language are not unlike table manners, in my opinion. Know when to use the knife and fork, and know when you can get away with sticking your whole face in the plate. And don't confuse the two!
furrykef   Sun May 27, 2007 2:43 am GMT
<< Remember that practically no one says, for example, "My friend and I" or even "I and my friend", but rather the preferred form in at least the vast majority of English dialects is "me and my friend" >>

I disagree. If it's the subject, I would still say "My friend and I" rather than "Me and my friend", and it sounds perfectly natural to me. Most people I know prefer "Kim and I" and "My friend and I", except for African-American speakers, but "Me and Kim" is standard usage in African-American Vernacular English... but it isn't in standard English. I don't think the reason why we prefer "Kim and I" has much to do with prescriptivism... consider all the other rules that prescriptivism has fought against, such as the rule against ending a sentence with a preposition, or against splitting infinitives, that everybody ignores except in formal speech and writing (and, these days, those particular rules are often ignored even then). But most people I know don't ignore the "Kim and I" versus "Me and Kim" rule, and the reason why is that "Me and Kim" doesn't sound natural, not just because we were taught it's wrong.

- Kef
Travis   Sun May 27, 2007 2:58 am GMT
>>I disagree. If it's the subject, I would still say "My friend and I" rather than "Me and my friend", and it sounds perfectly natural to me. Most people I know prefer "Kim and I" and "My friend and I", except for African-American speakers, but "Me and Kim" is standard usage in African-American Vernacular English... but it isn't in standard English. I don't think the reason why we prefer "Kim and I" has much to do with prescriptivism... consider all the other rules that prescriptivism has fought against, such as the rule against ending a sentence with a preposition, or against splitting infinitives, that everybody ignores except in formal speech and writing (and, these days, those particular rules are often ignored even then). But most people I know don't ignore the "Kim and I" versus "Me and Kim" rule, and the reason why is that "Me and Kim" doesn't sound natural, not just because we were taught it's wrong. <<

I do not think "me and Kim" is at all specific to AAVE, but rather is a general Late New English thing (when not exposed to prescriptivist influences). It is likely just that the prescriptivist idea of that one should say "Kim and I" has had more actual effect on the dialect where you are than here.

I myself do use "Kim and I" a lot, but that is a formalism which I basically was taught in school and not an actual native usage (note though that many aspects of usage in my idiolect have much stronger influence from the the formal literary language than most people here - for instance, I use "one" as a pronoun far more often in speech than most here). As for "my friend and I", I only use that when trying to be very formal, and it really is not part of my everyday speech at all (and really is not a natural construction to me).
Travis   Sun May 27, 2007 5:14 am GMT
Note that I need to qualify my statement about my idiolect above - it is my usage and vocabulary which has been influenced by the standard literary language (my pronunciation, on the other hand, has been effectively purged of many more standard pronunciations in favor of more dialectal ones); at the same time, such literary usages and vocabulary exist in parallel with less literary ones rather than replacing them in my idiolect, and many more dialectal usages are still very well preserved in my idiolect, with the ones in my dialect which I lack generally being ones that I never had to begin with (for instance, I have never used "hey" to mean "eh" or "yet" to mean "now", which traditionally are features of the Milwaukee dialect even though many if not most younger people lack them).
Travis   Sun May 27, 2007 5:35 am GMT
I have to qualify my statement about "hey" being used to mean "eh" - it seems to be extinct on the west side of the Milwaukee area (and if one from there were to use such a form they would be likely to use just "eh" [e:] rather than "hey" [he:]), which is where I am from, but it seems to be a current usage on the south side of the Milwaukee area, with there definitely being younger people from there (such as my girlfriend) who use it.
Guest   Sun May 27, 2007 6:40 am GMT
<<I disagree. If it's the subject, I would still say "My friend and I" rather than "Me and my friend", and it sounds perfectly natural to me. Most people I know prefer "Kim and I" and "My friend and I", except for African-American speakers, but "Me and Kim" is standard usage in African-American Vernacular English... but it isn't in standard English. I don't think the reason why we prefer "Kim and I" has much to do with prescriptivism... consider all the other rules that prescriptivism has fought against, such as the rule against ending a sentence with a preposition, or against splitting infinitives, that everybody ignores except in formal speech and writing (and, these days, those particular rules are often ignored even then). But most people I know don't ignore the "Kim and I" versus "Me and Kim" rule, and the reason why is that "Me and Kim" doesn't sound natural, not just because we were taught it's wrong.>>

Where do you live? What you say is not the case in California. "My friend and I" is not something you would from anyone except for perhaps snobbish people here.
Guest   Sun May 27, 2007 6:42 am GMT
not something you would hear
Maurice   Sun May 27, 2007 7:33 am GMT
<Rules of language are not unlike table manners, in my opinion. Know when to use the knife and fork, and know when you can get away with sticking your whole face in the plate. And don't confuse the two! >

Can you give some examples of language which would be on a parallel to sticking your face in the plate?
Maurice   Sun May 27, 2007 7:36 am GMT
<consider all the other rules that prescriptivism has fought against, such as the rule against ending a sentence with a preposition, or against splitting infinitives, that everybody ignores except in formal speech and writing (and, these days, those particular rules are often ignored even then)>

Wasn't it prescriptivists who created such rules?
Maurice   Sun May 27, 2007 7:44 am GMT
<But most people I know don't ignore the "Kim and I" versus "Me and Kim" rule, and the reason why is that "Me and Kim" doesn't sound natural, not just because we were taught it's wrong.>

Maybe you shouldn't do as prescriptivists have always done ans judge language use only from you small experience of the world:


Results 1 - 100 of about 168,000 for "between you and I".
Results 1 - 100 of about 313,000 for "between me and you

...

Results 1 - 100 of about 212,000 for "was me and you".
Results 1 - 100 of about 21,500 for "was you and I".

....

Results 1 - 100 of about 104,000 for "me and john"
Results 1 - 100 of about 784,000 for "john and I".
furrykef   Sun May 27, 2007 12:08 pm GMT
<< Where do you live? What you say is not the case in California. "My friend and I" is not something you would from anyone except for perhaps snobbish people here. >>

Well, I'm from Oklahoma... I have to admit that I don't get out very often, so my idea of standard usage is probably skewed toward things that my family is likely to say (although we're not very unusual on the whole... certainly not snobbish). But I insist that "Me and my friend are going to play video games" doesn't sound right to me at all. "My friend and I are going to play video games" sounds OK, but I also might simply rephrase the sentence: "We're going to play video games", or "Brandon and I are going to play video games", etc. It might be that most people I know simply rephrase rather than begin a sentence with either "Me and my friend..." or "My friend and I...", making the whole issue difficult to notice.

<< <consider all the other rules that prescriptivism has fought against, such as the rule against ending a sentence with a preposition, or against splitting infinitives, that everybody ignores except in formal speech and writing (and, these days, those particular rules are often ignored even then)>

Wasn't it prescriptivists who created such rules? >>

Hmm, I phrased that very badly indeed. What I meant was that prescriptivists fought against ending a sentence with a preposition, etc., but people still do it all the time anyway.

<< Results 1 - 100 of about 168,000 for "between you and I".
Results 1 - 100 of about 313,000 for "between me and you >>

You forgot 904,000 results for "between you and me". ;)

- Kef
Maurice   Sun May 27, 2007 1:24 pm GMT
<Hmm, I phrased that very badly indeed. What I meant was that prescriptivists fought against ending a sentence with a preposition, etc., but people still do it all the time anyway. >

How abot this'

Prescriptivists fought ending a sentence with a preposition, etc., but people still do it all the time anyway.
furrykef   Sun May 27, 2007 7:54 pm GMT
I prefer "fought against"... I'm not certain why, but I think it's due to the gerund that follows. Without the intervening preposition, it sounds like "fought" is modifying "ending", the same way an auxiliary verb modifies the following verb. Of course, that can't be the case, so it will still be understood, but the mind might still take an extra moment to parse the syntax.

- Kef
M56   Mon May 28, 2007 6:04 am GMT
To me "fought against" contains redundancy. Check out the meaning of "fought".