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Pronunciation of French words in English
<<Le [&] initial semble former une syllabe adventice. S'agit-il d'une épenthèse ?>>
Pardon, c'était une faute de ma part. Je voulais écrire [%] pour indiquer un accent sécondaire sur la première syllabe.
Pardon, c'était une faute de ma part. Je voulais écrire [%] pour indiquer un accent sécondaire sur la première syllabe.
Sigh. I already pointed out that the rules require that we speak English.
>>A closer English approximation of the native French [lɛ̃ʒəʀi] would be [læn.ʒə.ɹi]." <<
I agree with this but it's a fully fledged English word now so the English pronunciation that has stuck can remain.
To me, [{~] is closer to the French nasal "-in" than [E~]. "-in" in French doesn't sound like a nasalised [E] except maybe in the south of France.
English: van [v{~:n] sounds very similar to French: vin [v{~]
I agree with this but it's a fully fledged English word now so the English pronunciation that has stuck can remain.
To me, [{~] is closer to the French nasal "-in" than [E~]. "-in" in French doesn't sound like a nasalised [E] except maybe in the south of France.
English: van [v{~:n] sounds very similar to French: vin [v{~]
>>Sigh. I already pointed out that the rules require that we speak English.<<
I do not think such should be taken all too seriously, unlike what some would suggest. What such rules should really be treated as meaning is don't start holding whole discussions in something other than English, not that every single sentence that one says in here must be in English alone.
I do not think such should be taken all too seriously, unlike what some would suggest. What such rules should really be treated as meaning is don't start holding whole discussions in something other than English, not that every single sentence that one says in here must be in English alone.
Ahem:
Sorry, that was a typo on my part. I meant to write [%] to indicate a secondary stress on the first syllable.
Sorry, that was a typo on my part. I meant to write [%] to indicate a secondary stress on the first syllable.
>>English: van [v{~:n] sounds very similar to French: vin [v{~] <<
While the historical /{/ is diphthongal in my dialect, making "van" sounding less like French "vin", the instability of coda /n/ actually brings it closer to French "vin".
On that note, just how widespread is such coda [n] elision in English dialects, anyways? I know that it is very common in more limited circumstances in NAE dialects, such as before /t/, but it seems that some dialects, such as Josh's, has more generalized coda [n] elision. (Note that when I say coda /n/ elision, I am only referring to the elision of coda [n] itself; the phoneme /n/ is still present, as it the preceding vowel is still nasalized).
While the historical /{/ is diphthongal in my dialect, making "van" sounding less like French "vin", the instability of coda /n/ actually brings it closer to French "vin".
On that note, just how widespread is such coda [n] elision in English dialects, anyways? I know that it is very common in more limited circumstances in NAE dialects, such as before /t/, but it seems that some dialects, such as Josh's, has more generalized coda [n] elision. (Note that when I say coda /n/ elision, I am only referring to the elision of coda [n] itself; the phoneme /n/ is still present, as it the preceding vowel is still nasalized).
>>While the historical /{/ is diphthongal in my dialect, making "van" sounding less like French "vin", the instability of coda /n/ actually brings it closer to French "vin".
<<
Transcribe that phonetically in X-Sampa.
<<
Transcribe that phonetically in X-Sampa.
>>>>While the historical /{/ is diphthongal in my dialect, making "van" sounding less like French "vin", the instability of coda /n/ actually brings it closer to French "vin".
<<
Transcribe that phonetically in X-Sampa.<<
Well, historical /{/ can be a range of things in my dialect, from a very narrow diphthong [E{_r] to a quite wide diphthong [i{] (particularly in stressed syllables), and in unstressed syllables can be something along the lines of [E@] or even just [E].
As for unstability of coda /n/, I was referring to coda /n/ being frequently realized as just vowel nasalization without any actual [n] being realized.
Anyways, what I meant is that my "van", especially in unstressed informal speech, may actually come out as something like [vE{:~] than the more standard [vE{:~n] typical of formal speech here.
<<
Transcribe that phonetically in X-Sampa.<<
Well, historical /{/ can be a range of things in my dialect, from a very narrow diphthong [E{_r] to a quite wide diphthong [i{] (particularly in stressed syllables), and in unstressed syllables can be something along the lines of [E@] or even just [E].
As for unstability of coda /n/, I was referring to coda /n/ being frequently realized as just vowel nasalization without any actual [n] being realized.
Anyways, what I meant is that my "van", especially in unstressed informal speech, may actually come out as something like [vE{:~] than the more standard [vE{:~n] typical of formal speech here.
<<To me, [{~] is closer to the French nasal "-in" than [E~]. "-in" in French doesn't sound like a nasalised [E] except maybe in the south of France.
English: van [v{~:n] sounds very similar to French: vin [v{~]>>
All the French and Belgian TV that I watch uses [E~], but around here and in my French, it's closer to [I~].
<<On that note, just how widespread is such coda [n] elision in English dialects, anyways? I know that it is very common in more limited circumstances in NAE dialects, such as before /t/, but it seems that some dialects, such as Josh's, has more generalized coda [n] elision.>>
I think it occurs more often than it's transcribed. For me, word-final [n] is generally elided if the next word begins with a consonant; word-internal elision is a little more complicated. I haven't figured it out completely yet, but it seems to be more likely in stressed syllables than unstressed for some reason (except for '-ing' [I~]). It seems to be one of those effects of connected speech that are hard to describe and therefore ignored in some descriptions of accents.
By the way Lazar, I'm impressed by your French. I didn't think French was very popular in the US as a second language. Where did you learn it?
English: van [v{~:n] sounds very similar to French: vin [v{~]>>
All the French and Belgian TV that I watch uses [E~], but around here and in my French, it's closer to [I~].
<<On that note, just how widespread is such coda [n] elision in English dialects, anyways? I know that it is very common in more limited circumstances in NAE dialects, such as before /t/, but it seems that some dialects, such as Josh's, has more generalized coda [n] elision.>>
I think it occurs more often than it's transcribed. For me, word-final [n] is generally elided if the next word begins with a consonant; word-internal elision is a little more complicated. I haven't figured it out completely yet, but it seems to be more likely in stressed syllables than unstressed for some reason (except for '-ing' [I~]). It seems to be one of those effects of connected speech that are hard to describe and therefore ignored in some descriptions of accents.
By the way Lazar, I'm impressed by your French. I didn't think French was very popular in the US as a second language. Where did you learn it?
>>All the French and Belgian TV that I watch uses [E~], but around here and in my French, it's closer to [I~]. <<
I don't hear [E~] at all.
If the word "reine" is [REn] then "rein" is not [RE~] by extension, in relating [E] to [E~].
I don't hear [E~] at all.
If the word "reine" is [REn] then "rein" is not [RE~] by extension, in relating [E] to [E~].
<<By the way Lazar, I'm impressed by your French. I didn't think French was very popular in the US as a second language. Where did you learn it?>>
For the most part, I've learned it from a really good bilingual dictionary that I bought in Quebec, supplemented by the Internet. I love learning languages recreationally, and for that reason I've amassed a pretty big collection of dictionaries and grammars. ;-) Spanish is the only language that I've studied formally.
For the most part, I've learned it from a really good bilingual dictionary that I bought in Quebec, supplemented by the Internet. I love learning languages recreationally, and for that reason I've amassed a pretty big collection of dictionaries and grammars. ;-) Spanish is the only language that I've studied formally.
furrykef :
règle d'or de tout forum → lire un message n'est pas obligatoire.
règle d'argent → le commenter, non plus.
règle de bronze → être lu par tout le monde n'est pas un objectif universel.
règle d'or de tout forum → lire un message n'est pas obligatoire.
règle d'argent → le commenter, non plus.
règle de bronze → être lu par tout le monde n'est pas un objectif universel.
greg, I don't even know French. I had to use Babelfish just to get a clue about what you said, and the meaning still isn't entirely clear. If you can understand what I am saying, then why reply in a language I don't understand, especially when the rules indicate that you shouldn't?
furrykef : il y a tout un historique derrière ça. Désolé, mais je ne vais pas me répéter pour la énième fois. Si t'as des questions, demande à Brennus, par exemple.