One fifth of Israel speaks Russian also, I think it should unite and secede along with Palestine.
Belgium languages
I simply don't know how seriously I should take your statements regarding israel when your knowledge of the population is so poor.
"You gave Israel as an example of an area that returned to its linguistic "roots", and I was trying to show you that it was a bad example. I had the wrong numbers, but my points still stand: 1) Israel has been involved in wars or conflict with its neighbours for its entire existence, 2) the Hebrew-speakers in Israel are immigrants who displaced the Arabic-speakers of the area, which I don't expect would happen in Brussels if it were to become part of an independent Flanders, and 3) there is still a significant proportion of the state of Israel that doesn't speak Hebrew. Overall, I don't think it's a great idea to model your free Flanders on Israel."
1.)How does the wars that Israel has been involved in make it a bad example of an area that returned to it's linguistic heritage. First of all, it didn't initiate them. They wanted a peaceful solution. Secondly, Israel won all of them.
2.)The arabic speakers that were in israel displaced the hebrew speaking people who lived their in antiquity.
3.) Hebrew is the daily language of the vast majority of the population in israel. Arabic speakers play a very small role in Israeli society and a considerable percentage of them are bilingual in hebrew.
Why is israel a poor model for a free flanders?Israel is the only democracy in the region. It has a very successful economy that is growing rapidly and it is one of the most technologically advanced nations in the world. Not to mention, both countries are very comparable in population and size.
"You gave Israel as an example of an area that returned to its linguistic "roots", and I was trying to show you that it was a bad example. I had the wrong numbers, but my points still stand: 1) Israel has been involved in wars or conflict with its neighbours for its entire existence, 2) the Hebrew-speakers in Israel are immigrants who displaced the Arabic-speakers of the area, which I don't expect would happen in Brussels if it were to become part of an independent Flanders, and 3) there is still a significant proportion of the state of Israel that doesn't speak Hebrew. Overall, I don't think it's a great idea to model your free Flanders on Israel."
1.)How does the wars that Israel has been involved in make it a bad example of an area that returned to it's linguistic heritage. First of all, it didn't initiate them. They wanted a peaceful solution. Secondly, Israel won all of them.
2.)The arabic speakers that were in israel displaced the hebrew speaking people who lived their in antiquity.
3.) Hebrew is the daily language of the vast majority of the population in israel. Arabic speakers play a very small role in Israeli society and a considerable percentage of them are bilingual in hebrew.
Why is israel a poor model for a free flanders?Israel is the only democracy in the region. It has a very successful economy that is growing rapidly and it is one of the most technologically advanced nations in the world. Not to mention, both countries are very comparable in population and size.
JKL, you said that you are North American, but you take this issue too seriously, do you have Flemish relatives or something like that?
No, like all Americans, he just has a big mouth and the idea that he has the right to speak for other people.
1st Guest: I'm sorry I can't accommodate you. I'm sure there are other people who can help you fulfill your homosexual fantasies.
2nd Guest: No, I just like a good debate. Also, I feel it is my duty to correct the misinformation presented by fundamentalist francophiles on this forum day and night. The other side of the story should be told.
3rd Guest: I have an informed opinion and I'm sorry that irritates you. My voice on the belgian issue is quite neutral as an american. Therefore, I think it is far more valuable than that of the walloons, french and quebecois. I think the Flemish people on this board would appreciate my comments as I am not blinded by cultural arrogance. For centuries, the french speaking ruling class of belgium have looked upon the language and culture of their compatriots in the north with an air of contempt. They tried to reduce the form of dutch spoken in flanders as a bunch of dialects not worthy of language status. So I sympathize with the flemish because of this, because I despise people who view their language or culture as superior. It is this kind of mindset that led to the countless holocausts and there is no room for it in my world.
2nd Guest: No, I just like a good debate. Also, I feel it is my duty to correct the misinformation presented by fundamentalist francophiles on this forum day and night. The other side of the story should be told.
3rd Guest: I have an informed opinion and I'm sorry that irritates you. My voice on the belgian issue is quite neutral as an american. Therefore, I think it is far more valuable than that of the walloons, french and quebecois. I think the Flemish people on this board would appreciate my comments as I am not blinded by cultural arrogance. For centuries, the french speaking ruling class of belgium have looked upon the language and culture of their compatriots in the north with an air of contempt. They tried to reduce the form of dutch spoken in flanders as a bunch of dialects not worthy of language status. So I sympathize with the flemish because of this, because I despise people who view their language or culture as superior. It is this kind of mindset that led to the countless holocausts and there is no room for it in my world.
You say that they are fundamentalist francophiles, but you are not less flemish fundamentalist saying that you hope that in your lifetime Flemish becomes the lingua franca in Brussels. That will never happen and it's only your wishful-thinking.
Flamebaits, ad hominem attacks, straw man arguments, fallacies, apple-to-orange comparisons, ...
Need I say it? Mmh, yeah why not: don't feed the troll!
Need I say it? Mmh, yeah why not: don't feed the troll!
"you are not less flemish fundamentalist saying that you hope that in your lifetime Flemish becomes the lingua franca in Brussels."
Apparently you can't read guest as I never said this. I said it was likely english would replace french as the lingua franca even if Belgiun stays united. I also said that if flanders seperates it is very likely that dutch would become the main language of brussels again. So, first of all, flemish isn't a language and secondly I never said I "hoped" for anything. If you've read the news, you would have noticed the chaos in belgium right now and the talk of independence. I'm simply saying what many people are speculating what's going to happen.
Apparently you can't read guest as I never said this. I said it was likely english would replace french as the lingua franca even if Belgiun stays united. I also said that if flanders seperates it is very likely that dutch would become the main language of brussels again. So, first of all, flemish isn't a language and secondly I never said I "hoped" for anything. If you've read the news, you would have noticed the chaos in belgium right now and the talk of independence. I'm simply saying what many people are speculating what's going to happen.
"Flamebaits, ad hominem attacks, straw man arguments, fallacies, apple-to-orange comparisons, ...
Need I say it? Mmh, yeah why not: don't feed the troll!"
LOL, can't you do better than that?! Are you frustrated by your inability to counter my arguments? Careful now, guest, you are in danger of sounding like a troll.
Need I say it? Mmh, yeah why not: don't feed the troll!"
LOL, can't you do better than that?! Are you frustrated by your inability to counter my arguments? Careful now, guest, you are in danger of sounding like a troll.
Although Hebrew was brought back as a daily language (instead of a language used in prayer, etc.), there have been Jewish people for quite sometime in Israel (although not a lot of them)...As I understand it, some of the now-designated "Palestinians" (btw "Palestinian" used to include Jewish people even in the last century) were just bedouin-like people travelling around in that part of the world.
I'm not sure that discussing Flemish and French speakers is a good comparison for the situation.
I'm not sure that discussing Flemish and French speakers is a good comparison for the situation.
No, like all Americans, he just has a big mouth and the idea that he has the right to speak for other people.-Guest
JLK doesn't speak for me, but believe me, I believe he or she has a right to express an opinion. That's part of our "big mouth" freedom we enjoy in the USA, lol.
Oh, wait, you meant to be insulting...
JLK doesn't speak for me, but believe me, I believe he or she has a right to express an opinion. That's part of our "big mouth" freedom we enjoy in the USA, lol.
Oh, wait, you meant to be insulting...
I find it amusing that different nationalities I've been called in thread. First, I was called "a poor Flemish separatist". Then, I'm an "American with a bigmouth". Truthfully, I'm an Englishman of swedish extraction who also happens to hold an American passport(American mother). I guess the francophones on this forum find it hard to believe that a foreigner could be so well informed in continental european politics. Oh dear...Lets get some things straight though. I'm not anti-french. I love the french language(which I can speak) and the culture however I'm sometimes annoyed by french cultural arrogance and their superiority complex. No culture or language is superior to another and I hope the french, walloons,quebecois, and romandes can come to grip with this. We Americans and English are very fond of the Netherlands and Flanders. Outside the anglophone countries, their culture and language is closest to ours.
"We Americans and English are very fond of the Netherlands and Flanders. Outside the anglophone countries, their culture and language is closest to ours."-JLK
Well "Frisian" is supposed to be closest, but I don't think Dutch culture is like my culture. I actually felt more comfortable in Germany than in Holland. Maybe that's because a large percentage of US citizens are of German extraction.
Amsterdam feels like the SF area, or the funky, artsy parts of a lot of cities in the US. I don't live in those areas, though.
Well "Frisian" is supposed to be closest, but I don't think Dutch culture is like my culture. I actually felt more comfortable in Germany than in Holland. Maybe that's because a large percentage of US citizens are of German extraction.
Amsterdam feels like the SF area, or the funky, artsy parts of a lot of cities in the US. I don't live in those areas, though.
JLK
If you are so knowledgable about "continental european politics" to express such pro-flemish views, why didn't you know such facts as:
1. French was not the mother tongue of the Walloons until the last 2 or 3 generations: the majority was walloon/other related languages speaking. Recently, french is established as their native language.
2. Many educated flemish can see through the extreme Right Wing propaganda of the parties as Vlaams Belang, who show hatred for all immigrants as well as for their fellow belgians except if they are flemish. Many of the better informed flemish also regret this nationalistic, racist and selfish behaviour of their compatriots who want to split Belgium.
3. The flemish desire of separation of Wallonie is due to Flanders' *present* relative economic strength. As another person wrote on this discussion, this may change in the future. It is nothing to do with liberation of repression or the gaining of freedoms/rights (there is great autonomy in Belgium: each linguistic area has its own parliament etc)
4. Culturally and socially big differences can be seen between the walloons and the french. Walloons are very shy and modest; humility is more usual than arrogance in Wallonie. Have you been there, JLK, or are you stereotyping them based on your stereotyped view of the french?
I believe you are siding with the flemish without sufficient information. As a british person, you have a traditional dislike of anything french, while suppressing a secret envy. Out of ignorance, you put walloons and french in one category. Also, you gave your true motivation away when you stated:
<< We Americans and English are very fond of the Netherlands and Flanders. Outside the anglophone countries, their culture and language is closest to ours.>>
This is what the british want to think, but most dutch find the british one of two things: arrogant snobs or out of control drunkards. They much prefer the americans (who they also find loud and uncultured, but the dutch share these traits to an extent so are not offended).
If the culture and language is so close, why don't british people speak dutch? Oh, I forgot, they don't speak any foreign language. (==Example of stereotyping in your style but reversed). This reveals your biase for flanders and your badly-informed subjective opinion.
To become better informed I suggest you to watch a Vlaams Belang party political broadcast. I have seen several and they made me sick with their hatred and racism - the two of three central behaviours of flemish separatists.The third is economic greed. Is this the future you want for your continent?
If you are so knowledgable about "continental european politics" to express such pro-flemish views, why didn't you know such facts as:
1. French was not the mother tongue of the Walloons until the last 2 or 3 generations: the majority was walloon/other related languages speaking. Recently, french is established as their native language.
2. Many educated flemish can see through the extreme Right Wing propaganda of the parties as Vlaams Belang, who show hatred for all immigrants as well as for their fellow belgians except if they are flemish. Many of the better informed flemish also regret this nationalistic, racist and selfish behaviour of their compatriots who want to split Belgium.
3. The flemish desire of separation of Wallonie is due to Flanders' *present* relative economic strength. As another person wrote on this discussion, this may change in the future. It is nothing to do with liberation of repression or the gaining of freedoms/rights (there is great autonomy in Belgium: each linguistic area has its own parliament etc)
4. Culturally and socially big differences can be seen between the walloons and the french. Walloons are very shy and modest; humility is more usual than arrogance in Wallonie. Have you been there, JLK, or are you stereotyping them based on your stereotyped view of the french?
I believe you are siding with the flemish without sufficient information. As a british person, you have a traditional dislike of anything french, while suppressing a secret envy. Out of ignorance, you put walloons and french in one category. Also, you gave your true motivation away when you stated:
<< We Americans and English are very fond of the Netherlands and Flanders. Outside the anglophone countries, their culture and language is closest to ours.>>
This is what the british want to think, but most dutch find the british one of two things: arrogant snobs or out of control drunkards. They much prefer the americans (who they also find loud and uncultured, but the dutch share these traits to an extent so are not offended).
If the culture and language is so close, why don't british people speak dutch? Oh, I forgot, they don't speak any foreign language. (==Example of stereotyping in your style but reversed). This reveals your biase for flanders and your badly-informed subjective opinion.
To become better informed I suggest you to watch a Vlaams Belang party political broadcast. I have seen several and they made me sick with their hatred and racism - the two of three central behaviours of flemish separatists.The third is economic greed. Is this the future you want for your continent?
JLK : « I can understand french and I know this is a multilingual forum, but I just think it's pathetic you can't write in english. Instead, you presume that everyone speaks french, a language far less studied and less useful around the world. I can only presume that you are an uneducated and illiterate person. So, I will respond to any more of your posts until you are courteous enough to address me in English. Good Day! ».
Eh bien, mon p'tit gars, tu risques d'attendre assez longtemps... Plus désopilant encore : tu te risques à utiliser le mot « courtois » alors que tes propos suent la haine et transpirent le ressentiment. Il n'est que de te lire pour dévoiler la rancœur stérile qu'un style pincé, des propos amers et un remâchement digne d'une vieille bréhaigne peinent à farder. Si la lecture du français constitue une atteinte au bon fonctionnement de ta petite horlogerie égocentrée, n'hésite pas une seconde à t'épargner la souffrance que ce mal t'inflige : passe au message suivant et réserve tes maigres forces pour des enjeux sans péril pour la sérénité précaire dont la guerre picrocholine que tu mènes dans le vide te fera sans doute l'obole.
JLK : « By the way Greg, I don't think you could have found a more biased source to make your point. Le Monde? LOL ».
Que répondre au béotien qui s'esclaffe en trois lettres ? « MdR », peut-être ? Et ajouter qu'il ne s'agit pas du « Monde » mais du « Monde diplomatique »... Mais il est vrai que le qualificatif a échappé à notre Candide.
JLK : « French speaking Belgians were made the ruling class of belgium and that was the case until quite recently. »
Si tu avais fait preuve d'un minimum de curiosité, peut-être aurais-tu appris que le français jouissait du statut de langue écrite en terre flamande dès le Moyen-Âge ? Peut-être aurais-tu également conçu que nombre des « Belges francophones » étaient en fait des flamandophones appartenant à « la classe dominante de la Belgique » ?
JLK : « I have an informed opinion and I'm sorry that irritates you. »
Détrompe-toi : nous ne sommes pas irrités, mais atterrés, par la suffisance d'un discours aussi borné.
JLK : « My voice on the belgian issue is quite neutral as an american. »
Tu ne fais pas honneur au peuple dont tu réclamais à seule fin de justifier, par l'artifice de ta nationalité, le vice de raisonnement que tu es incapable de reconnaître et de dépasser.
JLK : « Therefore, I think it is far more valuable than that of the walloons, french and quebecois. »
Il est vrai que sans l'arrogance, l'ignorance et la suffisance seraient orphelines.
JLK : « I guess the francophones on this forum find it hard to believe that a foreigner could be so well informed in continental european politics. »
Ce qui est à peine croyable n'est pas exactement ce que tu te plais à penser...
JLK : « I'm not anti-french. I love the french language(which I can speak) and the culture however I'm sometimes annoyed by french cultural arrogance and their superiority complex. »
Ah. Auf jeden Fall Danke sehr für diesen lebhaften Unterricht in sittsamer Bescheidenheit, für diesen gemäßigten, anmutsvollen Blick und für diese heilsame Schutzimpfung gegen selbstzufriedene Verblendung. Et encore merci pour la barre de rire !
Eh bien, mon p'tit gars, tu risques d'attendre assez longtemps... Plus désopilant encore : tu te risques à utiliser le mot « courtois » alors que tes propos suent la haine et transpirent le ressentiment. Il n'est que de te lire pour dévoiler la rancœur stérile qu'un style pincé, des propos amers et un remâchement digne d'une vieille bréhaigne peinent à farder. Si la lecture du français constitue une atteinte au bon fonctionnement de ta petite horlogerie égocentrée, n'hésite pas une seconde à t'épargner la souffrance que ce mal t'inflige : passe au message suivant et réserve tes maigres forces pour des enjeux sans péril pour la sérénité précaire dont la guerre picrocholine que tu mènes dans le vide te fera sans doute l'obole.
JLK : « By the way Greg, I don't think you could have found a more biased source to make your point. Le Monde? LOL ».
Que répondre au béotien qui s'esclaffe en trois lettres ? « MdR », peut-être ? Et ajouter qu'il ne s'agit pas du « Monde » mais du « Monde diplomatique »... Mais il est vrai que le qualificatif a échappé à notre Candide.
JLK : « French speaking Belgians were made the ruling class of belgium and that was the case until quite recently. »
Si tu avais fait preuve d'un minimum de curiosité, peut-être aurais-tu appris que le français jouissait du statut de langue écrite en terre flamande dès le Moyen-Âge ? Peut-être aurais-tu également conçu que nombre des « Belges francophones » étaient en fait des flamandophones appartenant à « la classe dominante de la Belgique » ?
JLK : « I have an informed opinion and I'm sorry that irritates you. »
Détrompe-toi : nous ne sommes pas irrités, mais atterrés, par la suffisance d'un discours aussi borné.
JLK : « My voice on the belgian issue is quite neutral as an american. »
Tu ne fais pas honneur au peuple dont tu réclamais à seule fin de justifier, par l'artifice de ta nationalité, le vice de raisonnement que tu es incapable de reconnaître et de dépasser.
JLK : « Therefore, I think it is far more valuable than that of the walloons, french and quebecois. »
Il est vrai que sans l'arrogance, l'ignorance et la suffisance seraient orphelines.
JLK : « I guess the francophones on this forum find it hard to believe that a foreigner could be so well informed in continental european politics. »
Ce qui est à peine croyable n'est pas exactement ce que tu te plais à penser...
JLK : « I'm not anti-french. I love the french language(which I can speak) and the culture however I'm sometimes annoyed by french cultural arrogance and their superiority complex. »
Ah. Auf jeden Fall Danke sehr für diesen lebhaften Unterricht in sittsamer Bescheidenheit, für diesen gemäßigten, anmutsvollen Blick und für diese heilsame Schutzimpfung gegen selbstzufriedene Verblendung. Et encore merci pour la barre de rire !