The propa way to spel

I'm bad at tinkering with spelling, aren't I. It seems like you think a lot of the spellings aren't such a good idea.

Quote-''MORE WORDS ON JOE'S LIST THAT I'M IN DOUBT ABOUT''

rigatoni-riggatonee
garage-gurrahj
new-noo
species-speeshies
iguana-igwaana
phonetic-fanetic
receipt-reseat
Nevada-Nevaada
Chicago-Shicaago
Tomato-tomayto
potato-potayto
Colorado-Coloraado
pecan-pecaan
route-rout
twenty-twunty
sign-sine
drawer-dror
encore-oncor

I don't know what you have against ''sine''. ''sine'' like ''fine''. What's wrong with that?
ignore-ignor
whore-hor

"I think most of the people that use [Our] use it for 'ore', 'oar', and 'our' combinations and pronounce 'or' as [o:r]." writes Smith. That's what I'd have guessed.

Is [Our] unimportant in spelling? Maybe it is for us because we don't use it but I guess for those who do use it it would be important. It's like "w" verses "wh".

I'm not fond of reform proposals which ignore distinctions which I make. No accent is better than any other. Reforms should attempt to be as inclusive as possible.

It's also useful to include such distinctions in spelling reforms to distinguish (what for some of us are) homophones. Joe would throw out these distinctions only to find a whole bunch of homophones to deal with. Then he would invent orthographic distinctions to replace them.

Why toss away distinctions which have a basis in traditional orthography, phonology and/or etymology only to reinvent new ones with no such basis?

One example is Joe's "forr" for "four". Apparently to distinguish it from "for". However, a double "r" at the end of a word is rare in English sticking with "four" or even opting for "foar" would be many times better than "forr".

"Is spelling reform crap?" Yes, I think so. It's kind of fun but in the end I think we're better off with what we've got.

Joe's make some more lists. Let's take a look.

ARE WE RESPELLING FOREIGN WORDS?

rigatoni-riggatonee
pueblo-pweblo

I think there is a good case for keeping foreign words as they are. Foreign languages have their own set of phonemes and their own orthography. Perhaps foreign words are better left as they are.

Please don't direct me to any dictionary as "proof" of their Englishness. We all know "rigatoni" and "pueblo" are foreigners. Besides, if we do respell them, what about "riggatony"?

ARE WE RESPELLING PROPER NOUNS?

Nevada-Nevaada
Chicago-Shicaago
Colorado-Coloraado

Some say names should be respelt others disagree.

YOU SAY TOMAYTO I SAY TOMAHTO

tomato-tomayto
new-noo
species-speeshies
pecan-pecaan
route-rout
twenty-twunty
realtor-reeluhter
phonetic-fanetic

None of these work for me and here's why.

tomato = [t..ma:tOu]
new = [nju:]
species = [spi:si(:)z]
pecan = [pi:k@n]
route = [ru:t]
twenty = [twenti(:)]
realtor = [ri:..lt..]
phonetic = [fonetik]

TOMAYTO TOMAHTO POTAYTO POTAHTO

tomato-tomayto
potato-potayto

Why "ay" before a consonant letter when "ai" is more usual in such a position?

LET'S CALL THE WHOLE THING OFF

garage-gurrahj
encore-oncor
ignore-ignor
whore-hor

There's the [Our] thing again (I believe). Also some say [g@ridZ] instead of [g..ra:dZ].

ODD CHOICES

receipt-reseat
sign-sine
raspberry-razzberry

Why "reseat"? Why not "receit"? You don't want "ei" for [i:] ... okay. Why not "receet"? You don't want "c" for [s] ... okay. Why, then, not "reseet"? What is it that would make one choose "ea" over "ee"? You could even have "resete" or "recete".

"Sine" for "sign" ... but I thought Joe wanted to avoid homophones.

Why the double "z"? Why not just "razberry"? There's a "b" there. You don't need to double the "z".

PUZZLING

hind-hiend
mind-miend
mild-mield
wild-wield
pint-pinte

Where's the consistancy? Why not choose between the following?

hind-hiend
mind-miend
mild-mield
wild-wield
pint-pient

or

hind-hinde
mind-minde
mild-milde
wild-wilde
pint-pinte

Joe, don't be too hard on yourself. It's all in good fun.

Smith, I think [n:] would do fine.

''ARE WE RESPELLING FOREIGN WORDS?

rigatoni-riggatonee
pueblo-pweblo

I think there is a good case for keeping foreign words as they are. Foreign languages have their own set of phonemes and their own orthography. Perhaps foreign words are better left as they are.

Please don't direct me to any dictionary as "proof" of their Englishness. We all know "rigatoni" and "pueblo" are foreigners. Besides, if we do respell them, what about "riggatony"?''

''Rigatoni'' is a kind of pasta. If ''rigatoni'' is a foreign word then what's the English word for that type of pasta. What do you call rigatoni? I'm guessing you're saying that the word ''rigatoni'' came from Italian. I always call it rigatoni when I'm talking about it what do you call it.
Also, I see the word ''pueblo'' written in history books that talk about the medieval times. A lot of history books talk about pueblos. If ''pueblo'' is a foreign word then what's the English word for a pueblo? I always call them pueblos when I talk about them. What do you call pueblos.

So, when I'm using the words ''rigatoni'' and ''pueblo'' am I really using incorrect English? I don't think so. If ''rigatoni'' and ''pueblo'' are not English words then why do I see the word ''pueblo'' written in many history books and why is it that every time I buy a box of rigatoni noodles at the grocery store, the box always says ''rigatoni''. If ''rigatoni'' and ''pueblo'' are foreign words then does that mean that the words pizza, spaghetti, taco, pasta, ravioli, karate, sushi, encore, entree, genre and llama are also foreign words?

''Sine'' is not that common of a word so ''sine'' for ''sign'' is fine.

Other words,

colonel-kernel
llama-lama
entree-ontray
Worcestershire-Woostershur
janitor-janniter
gaol/jail-jale
khaki-kakkee
contretemps-contrataan
tyrannosaurus rex-Turronnasorus rex
shephard-sheppurd
phone-fone
brontasaurus-brontasorus
tricerotops-trieserratops
gourd-gord
tour-tor
buoy-booey
rouille-rooey
heir-aire

pajamas/pyjamas-pajahmas, No more mess with my PJs.
Celts-Kelts
Celtic-Keltic
scent-sennt
sushi-sooshee
spaghetti-spagettee
pizza-peetsa
karate-kurrahtee
cnidarian-niddarrian
echinoderm-eekienaderm
produce-pruddoose
produce-proadoose
crustacean-crustaishen

Some things about Joe's tinke reform.

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Ignoring the [Our].

Joe respells ''four'' as ''forr''. ''orr'' in non-North American accents is pronounced as [or] always. So, ''forr'' might actually look like to some Britons that it should be pronounced [fo[r]] and not [fo:[r]]. ''orr'' doesn't ever occur at the end of a word. A better respelling would be ''foar''.

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Joe's ''ie'' list.

hind-hiend
mind-miend
mild-mield
wild-wield
pint-pinte

So, I guess Joe would respell ''find'' as ''fiend'' but there's a problem. There's already ''fiend'' that's pronounced differently.

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colonel-kernel - Now Joe's made a homograph for a piece of popcorn.


Worcestershire-Woostershur - Better ask someone from Worcestershire how they pronounce the name before you respell it.

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Nasalized vowels ignored.

Many English speakers make no distinction between [n] and [n:] but shouldn't the distinction stay in spelling though. [n:] is a symbol I made up. ''This simple indicates that a preceding vowel or diphthong is pronounced with the nasal passages open, as in ''contretemps''. [n:] does not does not itself represent a nasal consonant but it is used to show that a proceeding vowel is nasalized. [n:] is a very rare but does exist in ''grand prix'' and ''contretemps''. There is no way to write [n:] in traditional orthography because [n:] is a very rare phoneme. So, perhaps the word ''contretemps'' should remain spelled ''contretemps''.

Here's a sample of ''contretemps'' pronounced with [n:]

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/audio.pl?contre04.wav=contretemps

And ''grand prix''.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/audio.pl?contre04.wav=contretemps

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produce-pruddoose -- that looks kind of hard to read.

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Postvocalic ''y'' ignored.

According to the dictionary http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=rouille some people pronounce ''rouille'' as [ru:i[:] ] while some other people pronounce it as [ru:j]. The [j] being the ''y'' sound in ''yard''? There's no way to write the postvocalic ''y'' in traditional orthography because ''y'' is often a vowel at the end of a word and a word ending in [j] is rare. Perhaps, ''rouille'' should remain spelled as ''rouille''.

I've just created a new thread about spelling reform, ''Common questions people ask about spelling reforms''? http://b16.ezboard.com/feuropa2frm40.showMessage?topicID=40.topic

Smith, ''Worcestershire'' is pronounced [wust..r] so, ''Woostershur'' works fine. It's not [we:rTsest..rshai..[r]] like some people think it is.

Smith, how else can someone pronounce ''forr'' than to say [fo:r] I don't see any other way to pronounce a word spelled ''forr''.

Smith, There's no [n:] phoneme. What do you mean by the [n:] phoneme? If you look at the antimoon chart
http://www.antimoon.com/how/pronunc-ascii.htm there's no [n:] phoneme nor is there a [W] phoneme.

Smith, No one pronounces ''rouille'' as [ru:j]. ''rouille'' rhymes with ''buoy'' and ''gooey''.

weird-weerd
werewolf-warewoolf
soup-soop
who-hoo
new-new
knew-nue
know-noe
suit-soot
bus stop-busstop
fjord-fyord
lighter-liter
liter-leeter
find-fined
mind-mined
grind-grined
wind-wined
wild-wiled
child-chiled
build-bild
hot water heater-hotwatterheater
Multiverse-Multivurss
choir-quire
quay-key
island-Ieland
sword-sord
sward-sword
folk-foek
whew-hue
whoa-wo
Hanukah-Haanaka
Chanukah-Haanaka
Thanksgiving-Thanksgivving

quoin-koin
coral-corral
corral-curralle
water-wawter
wash-waash
watt-waat
wander-waander
hose-hoze

Good idea, Joe!

It's just imaging how to make a new appropiate spelling, ah?

I wish I saw other people doing the same you're doing for our
weird differences among English dialects.

Some of Joe's new spellings look really messy though.

Jim, I pronounce ''err'' as ''error'' minus the ''-or''.

Here are some more words,

sugar-shooger
chute-shute
guide-gide
uh-oh-uhoh
uh-uh-uhuh
uh-huh-uhhuh
ugh-ug
ooh-oo
yea-yae
beautiful-buetiful
beauty-buety
deny-duhnie
Oort Cloud-Ort Cloud
stupid-stoopid
sol-soal
re-rae
piano-pianno
musician-muzishun
parmasan-parmazaan
dude-dood
cocoa-cocoe
marriage-marrij
carriage-carrij
bicycle-biesikkul
tricycle-triesikkul
motorcycle-motersikul
unicycle-unisikul