Americans do not always distingusih Spaniards from 'non-white' people from South America, much to the chagrin of the Spanish. Check out www.nndb.com and look up Penelope Cruz and Antonio Banderas. Their race/ethnicity is listed as Hispanic, while people of any other European origin are listed as white. While I agree it is a bit silly to separate Spaniards from other Southern Europeans, the resulting fury of some Spaniards, that they are being classified with 'lowly' South Americans as opposed to their rightful, prestigous status as 'whites' being recognised is pretty hilarious and distrubing at the same time.
American English in the UK?
The problem is not Spaniards being lumped together with South Americans, I'm sure they're fine with that. The problem is that US-Americans believe being South American means you're not white. Which it does not.
<<Americans do not always distingusih Spaniards from 'non-white' people from South America, much to the chagrin of the Spanish. Check out www.nndb.com and look up Penelope Cruz and Antonio Banderas. Their race/ethnicity is listed as Hispanic, while people of any other European origin are listed as white. While I agree it is a bit silly to separate Spaniards from other Southern Europeans, the resulting fury of some Spaniards, that they are being classified with 'lowly' South Americans as opposed to their rightful, prestigous status as 'whites' being recognised is pretty hilarious and distrubing at the same time.>>
This is most interesting. i met someone, a person of Mexican decent, who--in conversation--stated that he never had met a white person with his last name (which was Spanish). I said that those still in Spain are white. His reaction to this is largely negative. There is a tendency among Latin Americans to try and ignore their Spanish ancestry. Indeed, they can get very defensive about it. I imagine that this, trying to be careful about what one says in this regard, might explain why Americans do this.
This is most interesting. i met someone, a person of Mexican decent, who--in conversation--stated that he never had met a white person with his last name (which was Spanish). I said that those still in Spain are white. His reaction to this is largely negative. There is a tendency among Latin Americans to try and ignore their Spanish ancestry. Indeed, they can get very defensive about it. I imagine that this, trying to be careful about what one says in this regard, might explain why Americans do this.
<<Americans make the distinction between Spaniard and Hispanic and that is right because for them Hispanic is Latin American.>>
Actually, most well educated Americans will call people from Central and South America, Latino or Latina because most Latino's and Latina's feel that calling themselves Hispanic privileges their white ancestry over their Native Ancestry. This seems not to be the way of educated people in Europe.
Actually, most well educated Americans will call people from Central and South America, Latino or Latina because most Latino's and Latina's feel that calling themselves Hispanic privileges their white ancestry over their Native Ancestry. This seems not to be the way of educated people in Europe.
<<i met someone, a person of Mexican decent, who--in conversation--stated that he never had met a white person with his last name (which was Spanish). I said that those still in Spain are white. His reaction to this is largely negative. There is a tendency among Latin Americans to try and ignore their Spanish ancestry. Indeed, they can get very defensive about it.>>
Funny how one Mexican guy defines "a tendency among Latin Americans" all by himself. If he does, why do half the Hispanics register as "white" in the US census, while hardly any reports another race ?
<<I imagine that this, trying to be careful about what one says in this regard, might explain why Americans do this.>>
So you claim that Mexicans don't like being lumped together with Spaniards... and that explains why they often are ??
<<Actually, most well educated Americans will call people from Central and South America, Latino or Latina because most Latino's and Latina's feel that calling themselves Hispanic privileges their white ancestry over their Native Ancestry.>>
If it wasn't for the white ancestry, they wouldn't be called Latin in the first place.
Funny how one Mexican guy defines "a tendency among Latin Americans" all by himself. If he does, why do half the Hispanics register as "white" in the US census, while hardly any reports another race ?
<<I imagine that this, trying to be careful about what one says in this regard, might explain why Americans do this.>>
So you claim that Mexicans don't like being lumped together with Spaniards... and that explains why they often are ??
<<Actually, most well educated Americans will call people from Central and South America, Latino or Latina because most Latino's and Latina's feel that calling themselves Hispanic privileges their white ancestry over their Native Ancestry.>>
If it wasn't for the white ancestry, they wouldn't be called Latin in the first place.
<<If it wasn't for the white ancestry, they wouldn't be called Latin in the first place.>>
So, argue with them and not me.
So, argue with them and not me.
<<Also, the only time anyone in London was deliberately rude to me (as opposed to just vaguely rude, which is just a cultural thing and a whole different issue), was when a black woman purposely made eye contact with me and then gave me the full body check -- just slammed into me with her shoulder as she went by. Found that pretty amusing, especially as I come from a place that supposedly has a much higher rate of racial tension than the UK, and no one has ever done that to me here!>>
Uriel, what made you think this was racially motivated?
I think the 'vaguely rude' thing is interesting. You are right, it's somewhat cultural, but more a misunderstanding between cultures than one culture being rude. I had real trouble in the US not getting angry when someone would walk behind me in a supermarket and say 'Excuse me' even when I wasn't in the way. In the UK 'excuse me' is only used when the speaker needs the person to get out of the way or do something in particular. In the US it can be used in a more general sense to mean 'I'm just passing by' or something. Despite the fact I knew this, it was still hard to really believe it :)... that's just an example, but you get the idea.
Uriel, what made you think this was racially motivated?
I think the 'vaguely rude' thing is interesting. You are right, it's somewhat cultural, but more a misunderstanding between cultures than one culture being rude. I had real trouble in the US not getting angry when someone would walk behind me in a supermarket and say 'Excuse me' even when I wasn't in the way. In the UK 'excuse me' is only used when the speaker needs the person to get out of the way or do something in particular. In the US it can be used in a more general sense to mean 'I'm just passing by' or something. Despite the fact I knew this, it was still hard to really believe it :)... that's just an example, but you get the idea.
London is a huge city - a great and very diverse metropolis - and as with most capital cities it is not representative of the UK as a whole, far from it.
Linguistically, it's been calculated that over 300 different Languages are spoken across the Greater London area on a regular basis to varying degrees. That in itself is difficult to comprehend, but having worked down in London for short spells twice now over the past couple of years I can well believe it.
I know what it's like to live in London and to have to commute to work every day (by tube mostly) from one part of the city to another and then back again at the other end of the working day....me and about a couple of million other people all at the same time on the London Undergound system, and with most people fixated on getting back and forth as quickly as possible and having to cope with crowded trains, making you have to wait for the next one a couple of minutes later only to find that is crowded too so you wait another couple of minutes, and everybody intent on trying to accomplish deadlines by 6pm yesterday.
Once out of your tube station you then make way ASAP to your office and if you keep bumping into people in a similar rush you have very little time to apologise, and more than likely none at all. Or that's what iot seemed like to me, so you follow the flow, sort of thing.
That's the top and bottom of it, really, and though Londoners, such as they are, are not intrinsically rude, such are the pressures of modern life in a city as large as London, you can be forgiven for thinking they really are. Sadly there's just not the time for all the niceties of less stressful existences. Even so you'd be surprised how pleasant and friendly people CAN be even in all the hustle and bustle of London daily life - it happens more than you would think when you first encounter the stresses and strains of the big city.
Uriel hinted at the perceived rudeness of people in London - well, that tends to be the general impression of most people who are used to much more relaxed, infinitely less stressful environments where people have more time to observe the niceties of life and to have more time to acknowledge each other and are not subject to the added strains of metropolitan life.
Linguistically, it's been calculated that over 300 different Languages are spoken across the Greater London area on a regular basis to varying degrees. That in itself is difficult to comprehend, but having worked down in London for short spells twice now over the past couple of years I can well believe it.
I know what it's like to live in London and to have to commute to work every day (by tube mostly) from one part of the city to another and then back again at the other end of the working day....me and about a couple of million other people all at the same time on the London Undergound system, and with most people fixated on getting back and forth as quickly as possible and having to cope with crowded trains, making you have to wait for the next one a couple of minutes later only to find that is crowded too so you wait another couple of minutes, and everybody intent on trying to accomplish deadlines by 6pm yesterday.
Once out of your tube station you then make way ASAP to your office and if you keep bumping into people in a similar rush you have very little time to apologise, and more than likely none at all. Or that's what iot seemed like to me, so you follow the flow, sort of thing.
That's the top and bottom of it, really, and though Londoners, such as they are, are not intrinsically rude, such are the pressures of modern life in a city as large as London, you can be forgiven for thinking they really are. Sadly there's just not the time for all the niceties of less stressful existences. Even so you'd be surprised how pleasant and friendly people CAN be even in all the hustle and bustle of London daily life - it happens more than you would think when you first encounter the stresses and strains of the big city.
Uriel hinted at the perceived rudeness of people in London - well, that tends to be the general impression of most people who are used to much more relaxed, infinitely less stressful environments where people have more time to observe the niceties of life and to have more time to acknowledge each other and are not subject to the added strains of metropolitan life.
[Trust me, white people aren't going to be in the minority in the US anytime soon. Just about every US state has a white population of about 96-99%. Only about 3 or 4 states are actually racially diverse.]
Good God, guest, have you ever been in America? I would say only three or four states are truly homogenous--well, maybe five or six.
Good God, guest, have you ever been in America? I would say only three or four states are truly homogenous--well, maybe five or six.
<<Uriel, what made you think this was racially motivated? >>
Can't say for sure that it was. I didn't stop to ask. The post about the incident on the train simply made me think of it. And given that I was a complete stranger to her, and she gave me a dirty look and went out of her way to step out of the bounds of polite behavior suggests that if it wasn't about my looks, it had to have been about something equally as silly and superficial! I suppose the exact reason doesn't matter much at that point. ;)
<<I think the 'vaguely rude' thing is interesting. You are right, it's somewhat cultural, but more a misunderstanding between cultures than one culture being rude.>>
Of course. It's very much a subjective issue, colored by one's own expectations of how people "should" behave. That others don't live up to those expectations -- indeed, are probably entirely unaware of them, and have a completely different set of their own -- is not a reflection on them. But subjectively, seen through the prism of one's own culture, it may come off as rude -- although one understands that it is hardly deliberate.
<<I had real trouble in the US not getting angry when someone would walk behind me in a supermarket and say 'Excuse me' even when I wasn't in the way. In the UK 'excuse me' is only used when the speaker needs the person to get out of the way or do something in particular. In the US it can be used in a more general sense to mean 'I'm just passing by' or something. Despite the fact I knew this, it was still hard to really believe it :)... that's just an example, but you get the idea. >>
Sure. In the US, it is also a polite way of getting someone's attention when you wish to approach them -- usually we initiate conversations with strangers -- like store clerks or bystanders -- this way. It acknowledges that demanding their attention is an imposition, and begs their forgiveness. Sort of the same way that Brits often initiate similar exchanges with "Sorry" -- which Americans rarely use for that purpose. But the two strategies come from the same basic principle -- that speaking to a stranger requires their forbearance.
Can't say for sure that it was. I didn't stop to ask. The post about the incident on the train simply made me think of it. And given that I was a complete stranger to her, and she gave me a dirty look and went out of her way to step out of the bounds of polite behavior suggests that if it wasn't about my looks, it had to have been about something equally as silly and superficial! I suppose the exact reason doesn't matter much at that point. ;)
<<I think the 'vaguely rude' thing is interesting. You are right, it's somewhat cultural, but more a misunderstanding between cultures than one culture being rude.>>
Of course. It's very much a subjective issue, colored by one's own expectations of how people "should" behave. That others don't live up to those expectations -- indeed, are probably entirely unaware of them, and have a completely different set of their own -- is not a reflection on them. But subjectively, seen through the prism of one's own culture, it may come off as rude -- although one understands that it is hardly deliberate.
<<I had real trouble in the US not getting angry when someone would walk behind me in a supermarket and say 'Excuse me' even when I wasn't in the way. In the UK 'excuse me' is only used when the speaker needs the person to get out of the way or do something in particular. In the US it can be used in a more general sense to mean 'I'm just passing by' or something. Despite the fact I knew this, it was still hard to really believe it :)... that's just an example, but you get the idea. >>
Sure. In the US, it is also a polite way of getting someone's attention when you wish to approach them -- usually we initiate conversations with strangers -- like store clerks or bystanders -- this way. It acknowledges that demanding their attention is an imposition, and begs their forgiveness. Sort of the same way that Brits often initiate similar exchanges with "Sorry" -- which Americans rarely use for that purpose. But the two strategies come from the same basic principle -- that speaking to a stranger requires their forbearance.
Regarding the issue of Latino vs Hispanic vs Chicano vs Spanish vs South American, Central American, yadda yadda yadda: I personally don't get too worked up over the exact definitions of any of those terms, because I've seen too many people of the EXACT same heritage argue over which ones they prefer!
I usually identify myself as hispanic because that's the generic term you're most likely to hear around these parts, but I suppose that if you really wanted to get technical, I'd really be latina, since my great-grandmother came from Sao Paolo and the rest of that side hails from the Azores. But I personally find "latina" silly and pretentious, and I can't bring myself to use it. You can also quibble that I'm not hispanic because Portugal isn't part of Spain, but hey, it was once upon a time, and I can recall a few heated debates from my uncle on that subject. And, you know, marking "hispanic female" on my SAT's got me a scholarship to my first university. Who am I to argue 12th C. history in the face of $12k? ;P
Moral of the story: in real life, everyone picks the term they like best, and there are no hard and fast rules for who's what. And the minute you come up with some, somebody's gonna argue about it anyway!
I usually identify myself as hispanic because that's the generic term you're most likely to hear around these parts, but I suppose that if you really wanted to get technical, I'd really be latina, since my great-grandmother came from Sao Paolo and the rest of that side hails from the Azores. But I personally find "latina" silly and pretentious, and I can't bring myself to use it. You can also quibble that I'm not hispanic because Portugal isn't part of Spain, but hey, it was once upon a time, and I can recall a few heated debates from my uncle on that subject. And, you know, marking "hispanic female" on my SAT's got me a scholarship to my first university. Who am I to argue 12th C. history in the face of $12k? ;P
Moral of the story: in real life, everyone picks the term they like best, and there are no hard and fast rules for who's what. And the minute you come up with some, somebody's gonna argue about it anyway!
[I had real trouble in the US not getting angry when someone would walk behind me in a supermarket and say 'Excuse me' even when I wasn't in the way. ]
George, an angry response would elicit real bewilderment on the part of the recipient; "excuse me" is their attempt to be polite. The recipient would think, "Good Heavens, I wonder what HIS problem is.."
For my part, I have learned that "I beg your pardon", spoken softly, usually appeases everybody.
I have noticed in casual conversations on this forum that British people--and Europeans in general--seem to be far more distrusting of human nature than Americans, far more likely to assume ulterior motives.
George, an angry response would elicit real bewilderment on the part of the recipient; "excuse me" is their attempt to be polite. The recipient would think, "Good Heavens, I wonder what HIS problem is.."
For my part, I have learned that "I beg your pardon", spoken softly, usually appeases everybody.
I have noticed in casual conversations on this forum that British people--and Europeans in general--seem to be far more distrusting of human nature than Americans, far more likely to assume ulterior motives.
Yes. Beaten for nothing as children, most likely! Always looking for the fly in the ointment, even if they have to dump out the entire tube to find it.
Probably explains their unusual delight in crappy customer service, and their deep, paranoid distrust of the good kind. ;)
Probably explains their unusual delight in crappy customer service, and their deep, paranoid distrust of the good kind. ;)
One could argue that saying "excuse me" for no apparent reason is a bit distrusting of human nature as well.
***I have noticed in casual conversations on this forum that British people--and Europeans in general--seem to be far more distrusting of human nature than Americans, far more likely to assume ulterior motives***
Well, we world weary Europeans have been around for a much longer period of time than you guys have.....so far.....we have had infinitely more experience of the vicissitudes of human nature for many centuries and have had to live with the results far more graphically than you can ever imagine, tucked away as you lot are over there in your cosy, self contained bubble of incestuous isolation and remoteness!
When you eventually grow up you will no doubt be just as mean spirited and nastily misanthropic as we are. ;-)
Anyway, just to show goodwill we'd be more than happy to share a pint or two and a good laugh over a tasty ploughman's lunch* down the pub any time you care to come over and drop by - and maybe chuck a dart or two - at the board on the wall and not at the blokes grouped by and blocking the bar or hogging the snooker table or simply because we don't like the look of them ....or because they're English........as if. ;-)
*
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A5649285
Well, we world weary Europeans have been around for a much longer period of time than you guys have.....so far.....we have had infinitely more experience of the vicissitudes of human nature for many centuries and have had to live with the results far more graphically than you can ever imagine, tucked away as you lot are over there in your cosy, self contained bubble of incestuous isolation and remoteness!
When you eventually grow up you will no doubt be just as mean spirited and nastily misanthropic as we are. ;-)
Anyway, just to show goodwill we'd be more than happy to share a pint or two and a good laugh over a tasty ploughman's lunch* down the pub any time you care to come over and drop by - and maybe chuck a dart or two - at the board on the wall and not at the blokes grouped by and blocking the bar or hogging the snooker table or simply because we don't like the look of them ....or because they're English........as if. ;-)
*
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A5649285