American English in the UK?

<<George, an angry response would elicit real bewilderment on the part of the recipient; "excuse me" is their attempt to be polite. The recipient would think, "Good Heavens, I wonder what HIS problem is..">>

Yes, you are right, and it was quite obvious that to get angry would have been an over-reaction. Nevertheless, it was hard to take it in the sense intended because it was not the way I expected interactions to go. Fortunately I managed to keep my composure in every one of these events :)

<<For my part, I have learned that "I beg your pardon", spoken softly, usually appeases everybody.>>

As a reaction to an over-reaction? A softly spoken voice certainly goes a long way. I don't think I know of a situation were an angry response actually helps were some cooperation is required.

<<I have noticed in casual conversations on this forum that British people--and Europeans in general--seem to be far more distrusting of human nature than Americans, far more likely to assume ulterior motives.>>

I completely disagree with this. I believe people are generally of a similar nature the world over. The differences often discussed on this forum are the relatively minor differences which are only exaggerated by the fact we are otherwise so similar. The difference is merely the style used. In general Americans overstate and Britons understate, so after a few American recommendations of 'todally awesome' a Briton might become sceptical, whereas a British 'not too bad really' might be viewed as cynical by an American.

It is remarkably easy to make assumptions without realising it and that is were we all slip up and misunderstand each other. Take for example, the French and the Americans. Both enjoy a healthy hatred of the other, but the underlying people are the same. One common complaint of Americans in France is that they aren't given the same choice they are in the States. Okay, on the menu it says it comes with a garnish, but if I know I don't like it, why can't you just leave it off! Fair enough, but you haven't asked what a Frenchman thinks when he goes to New York. Order something from the menu, okay, but what kind of bread do you want with that? What kind of salad dressing? Even, what kind of meat? By the end of the ordeal they are thinking they should have just cooked it themselves. And there it is. In France, the chef is the chief (if fact, they are the same words in French). He is paid because he has a skill, and that skill is making meals. Someone who makes what they are told is a servant, not a chef. The American goes to a restaurant because he doesn't want the hassle of cooking at home. The Frenchman goes to a restaurant because a skilled chef will make a tastier meal than he could at home. The American pays for convenience, the Frenchman for craftsmanship.

They are both reasonable positions --- sometimes I don't feel like cooking and other times I don't know what to cook --- but easily misunderstood from a different perspective.

<<<There are also a lot of black people who act white (eg Obama) and a lot of white people who act black (eg Eminem). Those are extreme examples, but it's very widespread.>>>

Acting?! Widespread?! I know many non-whites and whites who are just being themselves - a product of the enviroment they grew up in. I doubt most of them are "acting". As for Obama - he's biracial. Raised by his white mom. How and why must he be acting? I didn't know there was a certain way one should act. You're too funny.

[<<For my part, I have learned that "I beg your pardon", spoken softly, usually appeases everybody.>> ]

George, I misspoke. I was referring to using a softly spoken "I beg your pardon" instead of "Excuse me', not as a reaction to "excuse me'; mea culpa.

[so after a few American recommendations of 'todally awesome' ] George, I HATE that word "awesome" almost to the point of hysteria; in fact, a good part of a thread was devoted to this. I'd like to suggest a drinking game: Watch a home improvement program, get shots of liquor, and every time you hear the word "awesome" you must chug a shot; you'll be drunk before the show is over. Where did we Americans get that goddawful word??

[<<I have noticed in casual conversations on this forum that British people--and Europeans in general--seem to be far more distrusting of human nature than Americans, far more likely to assume ulterior motives.>>]

<wrinkles brow> It's complex, Guest. I could explain in detail, but it's awfully involved. Suffice it to say that it's a conclusion I've made derived from a lot of factors, speaking to Europeans about their assumptions. I believe there's an underlying sense of distrust in Europeans probably due to Europe's past: wars, countries being overrun two or three times, etc. I will elaborate only if you ask me to...

>>[so after a few American recommendations of 'todally awesome' ] George, I HATE that word "awesome" almost to the point of hysteria; in fact, a good part of a thread was devoted to this. I'd like to suggest a drinking game: Watch a home improvement program, get shots of liquor, and every time you hear the word "awesome" you must chug a shot; you'll be drunk before the show is over. Where did we Americans get that goddawful word??<<

I myself have to very strongly agree that "awesome" is a thoroughly horrible word whose use I most definitely hate. Luckily it is not used much here in Milwaukee, and honestly I tend to associate the word with just about everything bad and wrong associated with (in particular southern) California...

First, the earlier 'guest' post was mine. Sorry I forgot to add my name.

<<George, I HATE that word "awesome" almost to the point of hysteria>>

Ah, that's interesting. I have to say, I completely agree with you, at least in the way it is overused these days (to some extent in the UK as the US). But I find the word itself beautiful though, it contrasts so nicely with awful. Something that is full of awe can at the same time be awful and awesome. Ah, you even used awful yourself there! I seem to remember it coming up in an English lesson years ago in this schizophrenic manner while reading Macbeth, but I can't remember the line now. Unfortunately its recent use seems to forget this, so I am in your camp and will be avoiding it like the plague for a while.

<<I will elaborate only if you ask me to...>>

Well, I would love to hear it... Obviously you should say your piece before I can really respond, but I'm sceptical of collective memory. It is obvious to me as I grow older that even events such as WWII are passing from our minds as it slips from living memory. This is equally true in the US. More importantly, the experiences of European countries varies so wildly that it's silly to group them together like that.

I understand where such thoughts come from. I feel I could argue that American is far more that way than Europe. But I fight it, because I think it is really not logical, more of a knee jerk reaction to the cultural differences.

Anyway, I love a discussion, so let's hear it...

[Ah, that's interesting. I have to say, I completely agree with you, at least in the way it is overused these days (to some extent in the UK as the US). But I find the word itself beautiful though, it contrasts so nicely with awful. Something that is full of awe can at the same time be awful and awesome. Ah, you even used awful yourself there!]

Good point, indeed, Guest. The difference in American culture is surely tradition. The use of the word "awful" dates back to Elizabethan times; the English in the UK, evidently metamorphized away from it, while the English in the US did not. My own grandmother, born in 1905, used the word frequently.

By contrast, the use of "awesome" is very new. I never heard it myself until the 80s, although I understand it originated in the subculture of 70s California. Part of my dislike of the word is admittedly based on its origin, but an equally large part of my dislike is that it's almost comically overused. Any overused word can grate the nerves.

[t is obvious to me as I grow older that even events such as WWII are passing from our minds as it slips from living memory. This is equally true in the US. More importantly, the experiences of European countries varies so wildly that it's silly to group them together like that.]

I beg to disagree on both points, Guest. WWII affected the entire continent of Europe far more profoundly than the US, in every possible way. (We won't even get into WW1.) If a certain level of cynicism and distrust is felt by survivors of a war, this would certainly be passed down to sons and grandsons, don't you think?

The reasons I assess British (and Continental Europeans) as basically distrustful really are too involved to go into here, Guest. A complete account would go on for pages; I don't think the Moderators would tolerate it. Suffice it to say that my opinion is drawn from many incidents involving many people, both English and non-English, weaved into one coherent whole.

To comically oversimplify for the sake of brevity, however, let's put it this way: the well-known British love for cynicism towards life in general would certainly tend to include cynicism towards fellow human beings. Cynicism is only one step away from mistrust. Can you see this point?

<<we world weary Europeans have been around for a much longer period of time than you guys have>>

Dude, we didn't arise by spontaneous generation. Our bloodlines stretch back just as far as anyone else's -- all we did was move away! And don't think we didn't bring our baggage with us.... ;P


<<It's complex, Guest. I could explain in detail, but it's awfully involved. Suffice it to say that it's a conclusion I've made derived from a lot of factors, speaking to Europeans about their assumptions. I believe there's an underlying sense of distrust in Europeans >>

I think they just don't read us correctly, and so that discontinuity between how Americans act and talk and how Europeans expect people to behave not only annoys them, but also makes for a lot of tension. I've brought up my stepmother a few times already regarding this issue -- she just doesn't "get" American social behavior AT ALL and always assumes that it's fake or involves strange ulterior motives, and she avoids interacting with Americans any more than she absolutely has to. Every comparison with how things are done in Europe has us coming off as inferior. Now, culture shock and homesickness are completely understandable, and I've experienced them myself when abroad. But at some point, you really need to suck it up and embrace your current environment. I mean, it's been years now that she's lived in the US. Both my mother and father lived in Germany for a decade or more, and I never hear any bitching from either of them about the experience -- they enjoyed themselves thoroughly. I'm not saying you can't have your likes and dislikes about anyplace that you live -- I could reel off a page or two of things I'd change if I were running the place for a day -- but my god, it's not a freakin' Turkish prison!

<<I think they just don't read us correctly,>>

Surely you don't read them correctly either ?

Ẁell, US English is not on the same level as Indian English, as Indian English is not native English, so US English has got to be better than that. But US English is seen as basilectal in the UK.

Jasper, this forum is about talking for pages and pages! :) Telling me that you have thought long and hard about it and come to your conclusion only after many sleepless nights does not make it the conclusion correct. I'm sure Ptolemy was equally thoughtful, but nevertheless wrong about his epicycles and what not.

Whether or not you think history is forgotten so quickly, Uriel is right, American history is bloody enough. Equally, before we start looking for a reason, were is the evidence for this mistrust? It is America where the right to bear arms is in the constitution; that is there because of a mistrust of the government but is more exercised in mistrust of one's neighbour. If everyone should have the right to defend themselves, that suggests there's something not to trust.

I should make it clear, I don't think Americans are more mistrustful, we are all roughly the same, or at least it is not our country of origin that gives rise to a difference. My point is that the evidence isn't exactly stacked against old Europe on this.

You never explained why Europe could be lumped together. The fact you've made conclusions about Europeans, which in this case seems to essentially mean all non-Americans, suggests your conclusions are wrong.

I'm a bit confused by what you say about awful and awesome. Awful originated around the 9th century with a similar meaning to today, although it seems to also acquired and then lost a positive sense somewhere in between. Awesome is also an old word, dating from around the 16th century. Although it's vernacular use and weakened meaning today is American in origin, the word has been around for a while with roughly the same meaning.

GEORGE: [You never explained why Europe could be lumped together. The fact you've made conclusions about Europeans, which in this case seems to essentially mean all non-Americans, suggests your conclusions are wrong.]

The whole of Europe has the same history of War in the 20th century--utter devastation. By contrast, America was relatively lightly touched because the war was not fought on American soil. At any rate, we entered both World Wars relatively late in the picture.

URIEL: [I've brought up my stepmother a few times already regarding this issue -- she just doesn't "get" American social behavior AT ALL and always assumes that it's fake or involves strange ulterior motives, and she avoids interacting with Americans any more than she absolutely has to] Thank you, Uriel; well said.

Uriel, your stepmother wouldn't happen to be English, would she? As we have noted in another thread, they are the absolute worst complainers in the world, and seem to have the worst trouble adapting.

To both George and Uriel:

Essentially, Europeans don't seem to understand unbridled, unselfish niceness; niceness for the sake of niceness; niceness for no reason at all. As Uriel has correctly noted, they're always looking for some ulterior motive.

By contrast, many of us in the US were Boy Scouts, or were brought up in religious environments. In the Scouts, we were taught to do one good turn each and every day; the intent of this endeavor was to teach the rewards of charity. If you've ever done any volunteer work, you'll know what I'm talking about.

George: do you want specific examples? It would fill several pages in its entirety; I don't think the Moderators would be pleased. If you do, shall I focus on just Brits, or all Europeans?

<<By contrast, many of us in the US were Boy Scouts, or were brought up in religious environments.>>

There's religion and Boy Scouts in Europe. Very few people remember the second world war. George is the only person in the world who gets angry when people say "excuse me". I'd really give up musing on this if I were you.

<<But US English is seen as basilectal in the UK.>>

No it isn't.

[There's religion and Boy Scouts in Europe. Very few people remember the second world war. George is the only person in the world who gets angry when people say "excuse me". I'd really give up musing on this if I were you.]

Unfortunately George isn't the only Englishman who carries an air of cynicism and mistrust of Americans. It's a conclusion I've made based on years of experience--years of little incidents involving a number of people.

How many Englishmen, for example, would go to a Lost & Found to look for a misplaced item? Even Americans are surprised that often, even money is turned into a Lost and Found; recently, a co-worker turned in a credit card with the PIN foolishly written on the back of it. While Americans are pleasantly surprised by this, Europeans would be absolutely "gobsmacked"...

This basic distrust of Americans is manifest in a lot of different ways. They don't seem to understand the concept of unselfish niceness....

<<Unfortunately George isn't the only Englishman who carries an air of cynicism and mistrust of Americans.>>

When did it turn into mistrust *of Americans*?> It was an attitude of mistruist *in general* up untill a moment ago.

<<How many Englishmen, for example, would go to a Lost & Found to look for a misplaced item?>>


Oh I don't know. Might be just the one or two. Might be millions. It might even be more than have an attitude of mistrust towards Americans. We'll never find out this way.

[When did it turn into mistrust *of Americans*?> It was an attitude of mistruist *in general* up untill a moment ago.]

I posited the theory of British/European mistrust of us several posts ago; one American--Uriel--has already corroborated this notion at least to some extent.

If you haven't read the whole thread, I can summarize the theory here: Europeans--and British people in particular--do not seem to understand that we Americans can be nice for no reason, but instead look for an ulterior motive, or automatically assume the niceness as "fake", when in fact, it is often very genuine...