I read it; it was pretty cool.
American English in the UK?
Jasper, the point of giving my interpretation of the events you listed was to show that what you think is a difference of character is in fact just a difference in social norms. This will be the case in any example you can give me.
Germans are no better at settling in than other nationalities, it's just that immigrants are better than tourists. That's why I mentioned that was an assumption I was making (which was presumably correct, as you haven't corrected me). Immigrants have time to learn the rules and the onus is on them to fit in.
Germans are no better at settling in than other nationalities, it's just that immigrants are better than tourists. That's why I mentioned that was an assumption I was making (which was presumably correct, as you haven't corrected me). Immigrants have time to learn the rules and the onus is on them to fit in.
Jasper,
I've been reading these posts with interest. What strikes me is that you seem to be attributing characteristics to a whole nation (60 million people live in the UK) on the basis of your extremely subjective interpretation of a handful of encounters.
Firstly, I would question your interpretation. Although I think you're sincere in trying to analyse the responses of the people in question, as a British woman myself I agree with George's analysis. It's also important to recognise that people in different cultural groups express feelings differently. What you interpret as pleasant surprise, shock, annoyance, amusement or whatever, may not actually be that.
However, it also surprises me that from these examples you make a huge, whooshing generalisation about British people (and Americans, too).
Within the UK we have a mix of regions, classes, ethnic groups and generations (as is true in any country), all of whom constitute different cultural groups. Surely it must be obvious that a 50-year-old working class woman living in a council estate in Newcastle, a young upper class university student living in Kensington, and a pensioner living on a farm up in Shetland are likely to react to social situations differently. And this is without counting the wide variation that comes with personality - common sense says that every population has a more or less equal share of introverts, extroverts, sociable types, cynical people etc.
To say "British people are uncomfortable with obvious manifestations of friendliness", to me just seems to be based on a pre-conceived stereotype that you probably already had. There will surely be some British people who are more reserved and uncomfortable with certain social interaction with strangers, juts as there are some who are themselves very "in your face".
And just to return to a point George made, if these people who you're basing your hypothesis on were tourists, it also follows that tourists are likely to be more circumspect and cautious, simply because they are unfamiliar with the culture in which they find themselves -and I believe that would be true for most people, regardless of where they're from.
I've been reading these posts with interest. What strikes me is that you seem to be attributing characteristics to a whole nation (60 million people live in the UK) on the basis of your extremely subjective interpretation of a handful of encounters.
Firstly, I would question your interpretation. Although I think you're sincere in trying to analyse the responses of the people in question, as a British woman myself I agree with George's analysis. It's also important to recognise that people in different cultural groups express feelings differently. What you interpret as pleasant surprise, shock, annoyance, amusement or whatever, may not actually be that.
However, it also surprises me that from these examples you make a huge, whooshing generalisation about British people (and Americans, too).
Within the UK we have a mix of regions, classes, ethnic groups and generations (as is true in any country), all of whom constitute different cultural groups. Surely it must be obvious that a 50-year-old working class woman living in a council estate in Newcastle, a young upper class university student living in Kensington, and a pensioner living on a farm up in Shetland are likely to react to social situations differently. And this is without counting the wide variation that comes with personality - common sense says that every population has a more or less equal share of introverts, extroverts, sociable types, cynical people etc.
To say "British people are uncomfortable with obvious manifestations of friendliness", to me just seems to be based on a pre-conceived stereotype that you probably already had. There will surely be some British people who are more reserved and uncomfortable with certain social interaction with strangers, juts as there are some who are themselves very "in your face".
And just to return to a point George made, if these people who you're basing your hypothesis on were tourists, it also follows that tourists are likely to be more circumspect and cautious, simply because they are unfamiliar with the culture in which they find themselves -and I believe that would be true for most people, regardless of where they're from.
[Germans are no better at settling in than other nationalities, it's just that immigrants are better than tourists. That's why I mentioned that was an assumption I was making (which was presumably correct, as you haven't corrected me). Immigrants have time to learn the rules and the onus is on them to fit in.]
I'm not completely sure I agree with that statement, George, but explaining this is going to require many words of explanation.
WRP's site has given me some valuable insights in understanding how both British tourists and British immigrants think, so some of the presuppositions have changed.
Would you rather I summarize, or do you prefer detail?
I'm not completely sure I agree with that statement, George, but explaining this is going to require many words of explanation.
WRP's site has given me some valuable insights in understanding how both British tourists and British immigrants think, so some of the presuppositions have changed.
Would you rather I summarize, or do you prefer detail?
***How many Englishmen, for example, would go to a Lost & Found to look for a misplaced item? Even Americans are surprised that often, even money is turned into a Lost and Found; recently, a co-worker turned in a credit card with the PIN foolishly written on the back of it. While Americans are pleasantly surprised by this, Europeans would be absolutely "gobsmacked"...***
An acquaintance of mine, a fellow Scot incidentally and not an Englishman, returned to his office from a metro supermarket close by only to find that his wallet was missing from his jacket pocket. It contaned abour £200 in notes and a host of credit and debit cards as well as other valuable items. He legged it back to the store pretty rapidly but in little hope of retrieving it as the area is a very busy one but happily the lady at Customer Service handed it over to him, contents fully intact, after he had convinced her that he was the rightful owner by detailing the contents, in addition to which he had his driving license to hand.
Apparently two young guys had found it lying on the floor in the forecourt of the store and had immediately handed it in to CS, but declined to give the girl at the desk their names for some reason.
The man expressed his gratitude not only to the store CS staff but also to the anonymous lads by having letters published in a local Edinburgh daily newspaper and also two weekly freebies which have city wide circulation.
It's interesting that it was young young lads of about 17, who sounded as if they were local by their accents, who had demonstrated such honesty, an age group which is usually much maligned by the older generations for all sorts of reasons.
As for the Americans in the UK the ones most Brits see are tourists of course, but I have met quite a few through the course of my job, as well as a few socially, on a one to one basis, and it has to be said that there really does seem to be a difference between the two at times.
I have met some really nice Americans on a one to one basis, and in such situations they didn't fit the general impression of American tourists many Brits have of them over here by speaking very loudly and constantly telling us how much "bigger and better things are in the States", which in many cases may be right on size in some regards but not necessarily in quality, that's for certain! It's just that we do a lot of things "dfferently" over here - differently but not less efficiently - and we could do with not being reminded of it quite so often. There are considerable culture differences between the UK and the USA and you might be surprised to learn that a lot of Americans appreciate a lot of them over here.
On two occasions here in the UK - once here in Edinburgh and once in Leeds - I have encountered a very vocal and very irate American (one man and one woman) sounding off big time to a sales assistant in a store simply because they could not pay for their goods in US $ bills. They could not accept that the US $ was not legal tender in the UK. I have never seen such a situation involving any other foreign national here in the UK. I have heard of Continental shopkeepers having the same experience with other Americans there, too. Perhaps a lot of Americans genunely believe that their greenbacks are legal tender, over the counter currency, the world over!
Many stores in the UK are happy to accept € notes though, but that's a totally different scenario altogther.
An acquaintance of mine, a fellow Scot incidentally and not an Englishman, returned to his office from a metro supermarket close by only to find that his wallet was missing from his jacket pocket. It contaned abour £200 in notes and a host of credit and debit cards as well as other valuable items. He legged it back to the store pretty rapidly but in little hope of retrieving it as the area is a very busy one but happily the lady at Customer Service handed it over to him, contents fully intact, after he had convinced her that he was the rightful owner by detailing the contents, in addition to which he had his driving license to hand.
Apparently two young guys had found it lying on the floor in the forecourt of the store and had immediately handed it in to CS, but declined to give the girl at the desk their names for some reason.
The man expressed his gratitude not only to the store CS staff but also to the anonymous lads by having letters published in a local Edinburgh daily newspaper and also two weekly freebies which have city wide circulation.
It's interesting that it was young young lads of about 17, who sounded as if they were local by their accents, who had demonstrated such honesty, an age group which is usually much maligned by the older generations for all sorts of reasons.
As for the Americans in the UK the ones most Brits see are tourists of course, but I have met quite a few through the course of my job, as well as a few socially, on a one to one basis, and it has to be said that there really does seem to be a difference between the two at times.
I have met some really nice Americans on a one to one basis, and in such situations they didn't fit the general impression of American tourists many Brits have of them over here by speaking very loudly and constantly telling us how much "bigger and better things are in the States", which in many cases may be right on size in some regards but not necessarily in quality, that's for certain! It's just that we do a lot of things "dfferently" over here - differently but not less efficiently - and we could do with not being reminded of it quite so often. There are considerable culture differences between the UK and the USA and you might be surprised to learn that a lot of Americans appreciate a lot of them over here.
On two occasions here in the UK - once here in Edinburgh and once in Leeds - I have encountered a very vocal and very irate American (one man and one woman) sounding off big time to a sales assistant in a store simply because they could not pay for their goods in US $ bills. They could not accept that the US $ was not legal tender in the UK. I have never seen such a situation involving any other foreign national here in the UK. I have heard of Continental shopkeepers having the same experience with other Americans there, too. Perhaps a lot of Americans genunely believe that their greenbacks are legal tender, over the counter currency, the world over!
Many stores in the UK are happy to accept € notes though, but that's a totally different scenario altogther.
Back in the early 90's you could use $US all the way up through British Columbia, but I don't recommend it -- they screw you on the exchange rate. You're better off buying Canadian dollars.
Some of the Mexican border places that cater almost exclusively to American customers will also take dollars, but again, you're probably not getting ripped off as much if you pay in pesos.
I wouldn't even think to try it anywhere overseas.
Some of the Mexican border places that cater almost exclusively to American customers will also take dollars, but again, you're probably not getting ripped off as much if you pay in pesos.
I wouldn't even think to try it anywhere overseas.
You can't judge a culture based on the tourists you see in your own country. If that were the case, then I'd say most Germans were violent, drunken idiots who talk way too loudly on public transportation. That's basically all I've seen from German tourists in the US, but I know that's not how they -really are-, so to speak.
Of course people love to hate Americans; if the English and Europeans could set up concentration camps to murder all 300 million Americans, they'd do it in a heartbeat.
Of course people love to hate Americans; if the English and Europeans could set up concentration camps to murder all 300 million Americans, they'd do it in a heartbeat.
I had a British guy over for Thanksgiving dinner last year. He was a friend of a family member and he didn't seem at all taken aback by compliments. (He was showing off artwork, so he was asking for it.) It seemed to me, his "compliments" were more back-handed than ours were. For example, "Your family is crazy- nobody is what they're supposed to be. You laugh like your on pot all the time, only you aren't."
He was really cool though, even though he practically ate us out of house and home. Oh, here's another good quote, "So cornbread... is that made out of corn?" He loved the Thanksgiving thing so much he's coming back this year. He says the journey to America was the best the British every made because Thanksgiving came out of it.
Point of story- he and every other British friend I have (there are two others) are not averse to compliments at all.
He was really cool though, even though he practically ate us out of house and home. Oh, here's another good quote, "So cornbread... is that made out of corn?" He loved the Thanksgiving thing so much he's coming back this year. He says the journey to America was the best the British every made because Thanksgiving came out of it.
Point of story- he and every other British friend I have (there are two others) are not averse to compliments at all.
I busted up over the cornbread quote!
Mmmmm, cornbread, food of the gods.....just think, had they never come over here, we might never have invented it....and the world would be a much sadder place.
<<Of course people love to hate Americans; if the English and Europeans could set up concentration camps to murder all 300 million Americans, they'd do it in a heartbeat. >>
No, they wouldn't. Heavens, think of the smell. ;)
Mmmmm, cornbread, food of the gods.....just think, had they never come over here, we might never have invented it....and the world would be a much sadder place.
<<Of course people love to hate Americans; if the English and Europeans could set up concentration camps to murder all 300 million Americans, they'd do it in a heartbeat. >>
No, they wouldn't. Heavens, think of the smell. ;)
[On two occasions here in the UK - once here in Edinburgh and once in Leeds - I have encountered a very vocal and very irate American (one man and one woman) sounding off big time to a sales assistant in a store simply because they could not pay for their goods in US $ bills.]
Damian, it's nice to see you; I've been looking forward to your insights on the issues being discussed.
Concerning the quote above, it's stories like this that turn most of us ordinary Americans crimson with shame. I've heard similar stories from Americans visiting overseas, watching other Americans make asses (arses) of themselves by abusing European waitstaff. It makes one ashamed to be American.
One thing to consider is that overtly rude people--like that couple you mentioned--are almost certainly likely to be rude to us American waiters, too. You would not BELIEVE how rude customers can be to us; I've witnessed waitstaff in tears due to mistreatment. It seems that rude people are rude everywhere they go.
Of course, a British shopkeeper, witnessing these shameful incidents, is likely to assume the wrong thing, viz., Americans are rude. If they do, it is certainly understandable.
Damian, it's nice to see you; I've been looking forward to your insights on the issues being discussed.
Concerning the quote above, it's stories like this that turn most of us ordinary Americans crimson with shame. I've heard similar stories from Americans visiting overseas, watching other Americans make asses (arses) of themselves by abusing European waitstaff. It makes one ashamed to be American.
One thing to consider is that overtly rude people--like that couple you mentioned--are almost certainly likely to be rude to us American waiters, too. You would not BELIEVE how rude customers can be to us; I've witnessed waitstaff in tears due to mistreatment. It seems that rude people are rude everywhere they go.
Of course, a British shopkeeper, witnessing these shameful incidents, is likely to assume the wrong thing, viz., Americans are rude. If they do, it is certainly understandable.
HILDA: "However, it also surprises me that from these examples you make a huge, whooshing generalisation about British people (and Americans, too)."
The trouble is, my opinions have been drawn from many incidents, spanning over many years and involving many people. Because there is so much information from which to choose, sharing them all would take literally pages--enough pages to fill a pamphlet. I had to boil them down to a few key cases for the purposes of conserving space.
Hilda, if you don't mind my asking, how would you personally have perceived the incident with danishes? That is, would you have been surprised if the waiter had brought heated, fresh ones without being asked?
The trouble is, my opinions have been drawn from many incidents, spanning over many years and involving many people. Because there is so much information from which to choose, sharing them all would take literally pages--enough pages to fill a pamphlet. I had to boil them down to a few key cases for the purposes of conserving space.
Hilda, if you don't mind my asking, how would you personally have perceived the incident with danishes? That is, would you have been surprised if the waiter had brought heated, fresh ones without being asked?
HILDA: I forgot to address one point.
The Fairbanks item was actually related to me by a cousin who lived in Fairbanks for quite a while. The conclusions drawn are his...
The Fairbanks item was actually related to me by a cousin who lived in Fairbanks for quite a while. The conclusions drawn are his...
Forget the danish -- if only we could train all restaurants to bring heated chips with salsa to the table -- you have no idea how much more wonderful tortilla chips are when they're hot. And no one outside the southwest is in on this little secret, I think....
Altight so here's my question: if, as Hilda says, our two ladies were perplexed by the chain of events here, i.e. got stale danish, asked that it be heated up to make it more palatable, got hot fresh substitution instead, giggled out of perplexity more than anything else, here's MY question: why didn't they just say, Hey, this danish is a little old/stale/I just broke a tooth. Can I have a fresh one? I would have done that long before asking that someone's day-old dog biscuit take a little trip to the microwave. And I'm rarely a bitch to my waiters -- I just expect certain basics, like food that is fully cooked, not moving, and/or not stale.*
(*Sorry, but over the years, I've gotten uncooked hamburgers, worms in my garnish, and dirty glasses -- and there are some things you just can't let slide.)
Altight so here's my question: if, as Hilda says, our two ladies were perplexed by the chain of events here, i.e. got stale danish, asked that it be heated up to make it more palatable, got hot fresh substitution instead, giggled out of perplexity more than anything else, here's MY question: why didn't they just say, Hey, this danish is a little old/stale/I just broke a tooth. Can I have a fresh one? I would have done that long before asking that someone's day-old dog biscuit take a little trip to the microwave. And I'm rarely a bitch to my waiters -- I just expect certain basics, like food that is fully cooked, not moving, and/or not stale.*
(*Sorry, but over the years, I've gotten uncooked hamburgers, worms in my garnish, and dirty glasses -- and there are some things you just can't let slide.)
I agree with Hilda that there are many other reasons people act the way they do other than their nationalities. The problem is that, however great Jasper's experience of British or European people is, it is from looking at them from the perspective of "otherness". So, where he sees the customary kindness of people in Alaska as being due to the place itself (rather than the USA in general), he sees the reaction of the British people there as being due to their Britishness. Might there not be some other thing behind it? Moving to Alaska is not really something the *typical* British person does. Similarly, where the attitude is radically different - the kindness of Alaskans perplexing the British incomers versus the good service in cafes pleasing them - you try to shoehorn these together because it's still the one aspect you're looking at.
As for the heating of the danishes - my reaction would probably be most down to the nature of the place I was buying it in. A worker in a roadside chain is much less likely to take any interest in the quality of your danish than their job description dictates they should. An owner of or someone who works in an independent cafe would much more likely do so.
As for the heating of the danishes - my reaction would probably be most down to the nature of the place I was buying it in. A worker in a roadside chain is much less likely to take any interest in the quality of your danish than their job description dictates they should. An owner of or someone who works in an independent cafe would much more likely do so.
<<Would you rather I summarize, or do you prefer detail?>>
I would love to hear as much as you are willing to write. I love a good discussion and this is one of the better ones on this forum. If you have the time and the interest please carry on. :)
<<Oh, here's another good quote, "So cornbread... is that made out of corn?">>
This is another excellent example that supports my view. The word 'corn' has different meanings in difference places. To an American, it is obvious that cornbread is made with corn, but you have not grasped what he was really asking in his question (or perhaps he has not posed it properly for American ears). In England (but, I learn today, perhaps not throughout the UK: scroll down to 'corn'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_words_having_different_meanings_in_British_and_American_English#C) 'corn' means wheat. What Americans call 'corn' is maize or sweet corn. The word 'corn' generally means a generic grain, but tends to mean whatever is the most common grain grown in a given place. His question was really asking, 'This cornbread doesn't taste much like it's made out of corn (i.e. wheat), is it really made out of wheat?' Not so funny, I agree, but now more sensible.
Even after spending several years in the US I would still slip up occasionally, but when friends visited me from Britain, I would be reminded of how much I had learnt to adjust my use of language (usually by simply avoiding confusing terms). It is perhaps surprising that these problems occur at all, given, first, that we speak the same language and can usually completely understand each other, and secondly, that most Britons have seen a fair few American films. I do recall, however, going through a period of 'enlightenment' when I realised how lots of slightly bizarre things could be reduced to differences I hadn't considered before. Here's one example: I can't remember what film this was in, but I remember seeing a scene where an American kid walks out into the road and is then almost hit by a car. How stupid, I thought, that the child should not look at all and to make things worse, then look surprised that the car nearly hit him! Like it wasn't his fault! Only after going to America did I realise at a junction with a stop sign, which are plentiful in America, cars are also required to stop for pedestrians. It is still a little careless not to look before crossing, but much more understandable in a country where you do at least have priority. This explains why the child might feel slightly upset that he was nearly hit and was not apologising for his own stupidity: if the rules are different, what is stupid changes.
I would love to hear as much as you are willing to write. I love a good discussion and this is one of the better ones on this forum. If you have the time and the interest please carry on. :)
<<Oh, here's another good quote, "So cornbread... is that made out of corn?">>
This is another excellent example that supports my view. The word 'corn' has different meanings in difference places. To an American, it is obvious that cornbread is made with corn, but you have not grasped what he was really asking in his question (or perhaps he has not posed it properly for American ears). In England (but, I learn today, perhaps not throughout the UK: scroll down to 'corn'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_words_having_different_meanings_in_British_and_American_English#C) 'corn' means wheat. What Americans call 'corn' is maize or sweet corn. The word 'corn' generally means a generic grain, but tends to mean whatever is the most common grain grown in a given place. His question was really asking, 'This cornbread doesn't taste much like it's made out of corn (i.e. wheat), is it really made out of wheat?' Not so funny, I agree, but now more sensible.
Even after spending several years in the US I would still slip up occasionally, but when friends visited me from Britain, I would be reminded of how much I had learnt to adjust my use of language (usually by simply avoiding confusing terms). It is perhaps surprising that these problems occur at all, given, first, that we speak the same language and can usually completely understand each other, and secondly, that most Britons have seen a fair few American films. I do recall, however, going through a period of 'enlightenment' when I realised how lots of slightly bizarre things could be reduced to differences I hadn't considered before. Here's one example: I can't remember what film this was in, but I remember seeing a scene where an American kid walks out into the road and is then almost hit by a car. How stupid, I thought, that the child should not look at all and to make things worse, then look surprised that the car nearly hit him! Like it wasn't his fault! Only after going to America did I realise at a junction with a stop sign, which are plentiful in America, cars are also required to stop for pedestrians. It is still a little careless not to look before crossing, but much more understandable in a country where you do at least have priority. This explains why the child might feel slightly upset that he was nearly hit and was not apologising for his own stupidity: if the rules are different, what is stupid changes.