English, German, & Dutch

ggg   Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:57 pm GMT
Low German is dead. It died after the fall of the Hanseatic League and mass education in German. Only a few old people speak it.


There exist 2 varieties today. High German with a Low German accent and Dutch with a Low German accent.

A good example of how divided 'Low German' is today. Wikipedia started with a single 'Low German' project. It proved unworkable; and now there are two. One in Dutch Low Saxon, and one in German Low Saxon. That's the reality.

http://nds.wikipedia.org/
http://nds-nl.wikipedia.org/
Travis   Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:20 pm GMT
Can you please shut up already? And what you say for starters is quite nonsensical considering that the (seemingly) terminal stage of the decline of Low Saxon only began around the time of the Napoleonic Wars, long after the Hanseatic League had become defunct.

Furthermore, what you are saying makes it seem like you *want* any surviving forms of Low Saxon to be eliminated altogether by specifically stating that they have no legitimacy as language varieties unto themselves but are only corrupt forms of Dutch and High German. Do you just want to try to finish them off out of being, say, some kind of Dutch nationalist?

And hell, I have most definitely actually people speaking in Low Saxon, primarily Northern Low Saxon, which was by no means Dutch nor High German, and which had distinct differences in phonology from both. And yes, I know that native speakers of High German who go and learn Low Saxon cannot be said to speak the most, well, "pure" Low Saxon (and, yes, often miss important phonological details of Low Saxon), but there still are people today who natively speak Low Saxon (even if they are natively bilingual in High German as well).

You should go ahead and suggest to many of the people on Lowlands-L (a list which has a good few Low Saxon-speakers on it, amongst speakers of other Germanic languages as well), that none of them actually speak Low Saxon but merely corrupt High German. Or please just shut up once and for all already.

Also, about the whole "German Low Saxon" versus "Dutch Low Saxon", that is because there has been a wide range of Low Saxon dialects in existance even before Low Saxon started really declining. It is not that the Low Saxon spoken in northern Germany is simply High German-ized, and that in the eastern Netherlands is simply Dutchified, but rather that the has already existed differences in the Low Saxon dialects spoken in different areas regardless of any actual influence from Dutch or High German. Of course the Low Saxon dialects in the eastern Netherlands are closer to each other than they are to say, Northern Low Saxon. And of course when people have tried to standardize upon Northern Low Saxon they have encountered problems with Low Saxon dialects in the eastern Netherlands, which are not necessarily that close to it.
eastlander   Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:13 pm GMT
What about East Frisian-Low Saxon or Low German dialect(Oostfreeske taal or Platduutsk),heavily influenced by Middle Frisian and standard Dutch? It's still alive in Northwest Germany:
"...Oostfreeske Taal is an de Eems binannerkomen un hett over de Eems proot...".
Travis   Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:19 pm GMT
Of course, that's one of many Low Saxon dialect groups. I was just referring to those which are most commonly referred to by laypersons when referring to "Low Saxon".
eastlander   Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:53 pm GMT
There are another group of Low German dialects-Low Franconian.Bible of Cologne,Johann Wassenberch's works was written in this.Standard Dutch derived from these dialects too.
Bible of Cologne:
"Ende hey sall ordelen de heyden
ende sal berispen vele volckes
Ende sullen smeden ere swerde in plochiseren
ende ere speer in sichten
Dat volck en sal dat swert
tegen dat volck niet upheven
noch vortmeer en sullen se sich niet oeven toe striden
Jacobs huis kom ende wanderen wy in unses godes licht".
Another group-Limburgish,is mixture of Low Franconian(or Dutch) and Middle High German.
12345   Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:37 pm GMT
The language spoken in Ost-Friesland looks a lot what we have here. We both have in fact the same word for ice skating.
Dutch: Schaatsen
German: Slitschuhen
English: Ice skating
Gronings (Dialect): Scheuveln
Ostfriesisch: Schöfeln

That difference is just there because Ostfriesisch is written in a Germanlike way, and Gronings in a Dutchlike way. 'eu' in Dutch and 'ö' in German are almost the same sound.

However I think scheuveln is the same word as the Dutch word 'schuifelen'. But in Dutch is has an other meaning.
12345   Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:40 pm GMT
I think Ost-Frisian and Gronings are mutually intelligible. Real Frisian is a bit different :). I can understand it, only brcause I live within 5km of the Fryslân border. I don't speak it.
Travis   Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:54 pm GMT
The matter is most currently used orthographies for Low Saxon dialects really do not fit them well at all. For instance, "ee" (and in some cases "e") is used in German-style orthographies to represent what is actually two different phonemes in Northern Low Saxon, specifically /eɪ̯/ (itself contrasting with /aɪ̯/ as well) and /eː/. Hence I have seen more experimental orthographies (generally influenced by those during the Hanseatic period) that better fit particular Low Saxon dialect groups better than German or Dutch-type orthography would.
12345   Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:39 am GMT
That's true Travis. But even the Dutch orthography isn't right to my opinion.

The sound like 'sch' in Dutch doesn't exist here.
Sch would be more like: 'Sk'. The throaty G is replaced by a K.
ggg   Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:11 pm GMT
@ Travis,

No I won't *shut* up. If you don't like the truth and reality on Low Saxon *per se* then you're the one who should * shut* up.


Low German is dead. It died after the fall of the Hanseatic League and mass education in German. Only a few old people speak it.


There exist 2 varieties today. High German with a Low German accent and Dutch with a Low German accent.

A good example of how divided 'Low German' is today. Wikipedia started with a single 'Low German' project. It proved unworkable; and now there are two. One in Dutch Low Saxon, and one in German Low Saxon. That's the reality.

http://nds.wikipedia.org/
http://nds-nl.wikipedia.org/
ggg   Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:45 pm GMT
...and I forgot to add that I'm a dope! Got that?
ggg   Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:25 pm GMT
Low German is dead. It died after the fall of the Hanseatic League and mass education in German. Only a few old people speak "it", and by "it" I mean less 'contaminated' versions of the older, real, Low Saxon language.

Pure languages do not exist. Some languages however, have very original material left in them. English, even with its many loans, doesn't even come close to this category. Low Saxon does.

There exist 2 varieties today. High German with a Low Saxon accent and Dutch with a Low Saxon accent.

A good example of how divided 'Low Saxon' is today. Wikipedia started with a single 'Low Saxon' project. It proved unworkable; and now there are two. One in *Dutch* Low Saxon, and one in *(High) German* Low Saxon.

http://nds.wikipedia.org/
http://nds-nl.wikipedia.org/
(^ ignore the facts if you like, they're still there though)

If you, *Travis* don't like that notion, then it's tough luck. You, and various others here, can continue your *wishful thinking*, but do not pose it as the truth. The reality: Low Saxon is dead, dying, and no longer 'Low Saxon'.