English, German, & Dutch

Travis   Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:32 am GMT
>>How many of you: Guest, Travis, Feati, speak Dutch? You sound like you are qutoing out of a book, what someone else said they thought Dutch was like lol.<<

I do not speak Dutch per se, but rather I am quite aware of West Germanic linguistics, as a whole. And even just subjectively, Standard Dutch both in writing and speech seems extremely close to Standard German from my point of view as a native English-speaker and as a (very rusty) learner of German. Subjectively, the only part about it which really sticks out to me are the French loans which are not shared with Standard German and some of the Low Franconian-specific phonological features, such as the loss of aspiration, the lack of hardening of /ɣ/, and the shift of West Germanic /sk/ to /sx/ or /s/ rather than /ʃ/. However, from a linguistic standpoint, I would not go and simply say that "Dutch is a sister language of German" due to being aware of the existence of Low Saxon dialects and of the great internal complexity of that which is commonly lumped together as "German".
guest   Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:47 pm GMT
<<And even just subjectively, Standard Dutch both in writing and speech seems extremely close to Standard German from my point of view as a native English-speaker and as a (very rusty) learner of German.>>

That is the general misconception.

I find that most native English speakers do frequently lump Dutch and German together.

Dutch is a great language to learn, especially if you are a native English speaker. You will be surprised to find out how similar the two languages really are!
Travis   Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:21 pm GMT
>>That is the general misconception.

I find that most native English speakers do frequently lump Dutch and German together.<<

I most definitely know that Standard German and Standard Dutch are different - they do not even belong to the same branches of continental West Germanic for that matter. But that said, subjectively, as a native English-speaker, Standard German and Standard Dutch seem much closer to each other than they do to English. Of course, practically *all* continental West Germanic dialects seem closer to each other than to English to me. This is very much unlike some who say that Standard Dutch is in between English and German.
Guest   Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:42 pm GMT
"Ik wil - Ich will - I want
onderweg - unterwegs - on the road
de andere - das andere - the other
natuurlijk - natürlich - naturally
Ik ben - Ich bin - I am
waarom - warum - why

So, in terms of orthography, I'd say Dutch is more like German. "


Ik wil - Ich will - I will ('will' still expresses volition in Eng- "willing")
onderweg - unterwegs - underway
Ik ben - Ich bin - I am/ I be
waarom - warum - wherefore
Guest   Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:55 am GMT
Some of the unique (or weird) aspects English can be attributed to Celtic substratal influences apparently. There's some research going on to show the underlying similarities between Welsh and English.
Leasnam   Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:59 pm GMT
<<Some of the unique (or weird) aspects English can be attributed to Celtic substratal influences apparently. There's some research going on to show the underlying similarities between Welsh and English. >>

Remember, Welsh is not a linguistically pristine language itself--it has a long history of of being affected by English, so any similarities must be viewed in light of that.

I personally do not believe that Celtic substratum has exerted any noteworthy influence on Standard English at all--not enough to significantly celtify it in any way. I just don't see it.
Guest   Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:42 pm GMT
This is quite a comprehensive article on some of the proposed Celtic influences of English. It's quite a long read but well worth if you are interested.

http://archiv.ub.uni-marburg.de/ed/2007/0001/pdf/niehuMA.pdf
Travis   Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:38 pm GMT
One thing that should be remembered here is that the Anglic languages, including English and Scots dialects, have been long isolated from continental West Germanic, and hence has largely taken a path independent from it, while the various continental West Germanic dialects, and the standards originally based off of them, have long had a strong influence over each other. Consequently, the Anglic languages have drifted away from continental West Germanic while continental West Germanic has remained more of a coherent whole despite having significant internal variation.
Guest   Sat Sep 27, 2008 7:18 pm GMT
@Guest

>> Ik wil - Ich will - I want
onderweg - unterwegs - on the road
de andere - das andere - the other
natuurlijk - natürlich - naturally
Ik ben - Ich bin - I am
waarom - warum - why <<

vaak - oft - often
soms - manchmal - sometimes
tien - zehn - ten
wie - wer - who
Guest   Sat Sep 27, 2008 7:19 pm GMT
My point being that we can all pick our examples ... it's not objective though.
Guest   Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:45 am GMT
indeed
Buddy   Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:47 pm GMT
<<One thing that should be remembered here is that the Anglic languages, including English and Scots dialects, have been long isolated from continental West Germanic, and hence has largely taken a path independent from it, while the various continental West Germanic dialects, and the standards originally based off of them, have long had a strong influence over each other. Consequently, the Anglic languages have drifted away from continental West Germanic while continental West Germanic has remained more of a coherent whole despite having significant internal variation. >>

And let us not forget Old Norse/Danish influence on English, which also has taken English away from its West Germanic siblings. Word order, rules governing shall/will, strong past participle forms, forms of the verb "be", etc are all attributed to Danish exertion. This influence however was abated by supplantation of other Norse linguistic forms, namely that of the Normans in the form of Norman French.
Buddy   Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:21 pm GMT
<<My point being that we can all pick our examples ... it's not objective though. >>

True, but I believe "Guest" was using forms that were readily available in previous posts...

as a general rule, however, Dutch often lines up or at least has a closely related term with English at times when German deviates as in

lutel (tiny); little; klein
alreeds; already; schon
sommig; some; einig
u/jij (sing.); you (sing.); du/Sie (sing.)
heel; whole; ganz
wel; well; gut (adv)
hoofd; head; Kopf (aber es gibt 'Haupt-')
menig; many; viel (aber 'manch-')
werk; work; Arbeit (aber auch Werk)
elk; each; jede-
mijzelf; myself; mich
jijzelf; yourself; dich
hemzelf; himself; sich

and in certain constructions, like:
zo goed als; as good as; so gut wie
beter dan; better than; besser als (although 'denn' can be used, esp dialectally)
laat ons gaan; let us/let's go; Gehen wir (arch. "Lass uns gehen" und "auf los")
de hele wereld ; the whole world; die ganze Welt

so there are many similarities between Dutch and Engels
Buddy   Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:25 pm GMT
<<Engels>>
That should be English


Also
achter; after; nach
Adam   Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:22 am GMT
I spent the summer of 2004 in Italy, and an Italian told me that English looks like Dutch when it's written down, but sounds completely different to it.

But, as a native English speaker, Dutch looks very different to English, in my opinion.