formas de tratamento

por-do-sol   Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:16 pm GMT
Eu também desejo um bom ano novo a todos os lusòfonos :-)
HappyHippo's   Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:25 pm GMT
Feliz ano novo para o povo lusitano!
por-do-sol   Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:58 pm GMT
bom dia outra vez ao povo lusofono.

Hoje agradar-me-ia muito conhecer como julgam (para voces, soam muito incorrectas ou sao simplesmente uma variante da rica lingua portuguesa?) as siguintes formas brasileiras:

me disse que nao iria vir
Vou contar para voces
Ela nao mandou flores para ela
Ela disse que nao escreveu uma carta para ele
As comprou para D. Teresa
me contarà isso etc

Muito obrigado pelas respostas
Uma brasileira   Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:04 pm GMT
Let's get this straight:


''me disse que nao iria vir''
Normally the subject is used:
1. Ele me disse/falou que (ele) não ia/vai vir.
2. Você me disse/falou que (você) não ia/vai vir.

(if one is still expected to come it's VAI VIR although the verb in the 1st sentence is in past)

Vou contar para voces

''Eu vou contar pra vocês''
visible subject is preferred, para is extremely rare in speech, pra is used normally/


Ela nao mandou flores para ela
''Ele não mandou flores pra (colloquial) / para (formal) ela''


Ela disse que nao escreveu uma carta para ele
''Ela disse/falou que (ela) não escreveu/havia escrito uma carta pra ele''
(both possible)


As comprou para D. Teresa
*not grammatical in Brazilian Portuguese

1. in spoken language it's: Ele comprou elas para D. Teresa
2. in formal written language (used in legalese): Ele comprou-as à D. Teresa.


me contarà isso

''Ele/ela vai contar isso pra mim''
or formally ''Ele/ela vai me contar isso''


Asking Portuguese people to judge Brazilian linguistic usage is not appropriate since Brazilian Portuguese has its own grammars, including the Grammar of Spoken Brazilian Portuguese :

http://www.editora.unicamp.br/detalhe.asp?referencia=226


Continental Portuguese sounds as weird and archaic/formal to Brazilians just like Brazilian Portuguese may sound dialectal or colloquial to Portuguese people. This forum is about asking for something you don't know and not about spreading hate (as topics like this: how you portuguese judge brazilian usage or how you british judge american english? )
J.C.   Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:16 pm GMT
por-do-sol:
If you don't like Brazilian Portuguese don't bother trying to attack it. I respect you for preferring European Portuguese and still haven't seen any Brazilian attacking your thread so why can't you stick with European Portuguese in this topic?

Cheers!!
por-do-sol   Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:08 pm GMT
If you don't like Brazilian Portuguese don't bother trying to attack it.

Are you crazy or simply too touchy?? I just wanted to know the portuguese point of view about the Brazilian variant or Brazilian. Is this forbidden?? Am I spreading hatred this way?? I don't think so. When I use those forms with portuguese people, they usually tend to correct me, that's the reason!
Bye
Sansa   Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:39 am GMT
-I don't think so. When I use those forms with portuguese people, they usually tend to correct me, that's the reason! -

With Portuguese people you should use Continental Portuguese,
with Brazilian people you should use Brazilian Portuguese,
in Peking you should use Mandarin Chinese, in Hong Kong Cantonese Chinese

it's about being appropriate, many people in Madrid wouldn't find VOS correct, and many people in Buenos Aires wouldn't find VOSOTROS correct

a Cockney speaker may be ''corrected'' by local natives in Texas, and vice versa, a Texan may be ''corrected'' by locals in East London.
my name   Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:44 am GMT
It's actually quite hard to change your dialect. You can't expect someone to put on a fake accent or dialect when speaking their native language, it would sound absurd. What one should do is speak as neutrally as possible and avoid regionalisms and excesses. A cockney speaker putting on a fake Texas accent would be repugnant, just speak clearly and neutrally. There are Englishmen living in America who still have an English accent and use English words even after decades...
J.C.   Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:54 am GMT
To "Por-do-sol"
"Are you crazy or simply too touchy??"
None of them. I just don't think that considering something wrong is the best way to ask a question about Brazilian Portuguese.

"I just wanted to know the portuguese point of view about the Brazilian variant or Brazilian. Is this forbidden?? Am I spreading hatred this way?? "
Maybe you're not spreading hatred but your question is purporting that Brazilian Portuguese is WRONG."
"When I use those forms with portuguese people, they usually tend to correct me, that's the reason! "
Well, if people correct you is because they either don't know Brazilian Portuguese or think that it's wrong. However, when I taught Portuguese for foreigners I NEVER flunked students because they used "pequeno almoço", "consigo", "comboio", "autocarro" and other EP words or spoke Portuguese with EP accent because it is also a variation of Portuguese which is different from mine but that doesn't give me the right to say it is wrong.
It's funny to see that many Portuguese consider Brazilian Portuguese "wrong" because I speak English with an American accent and slangs but never had any English person to correct me or say that I speak "wrong".

Cheers!!
J.C.   Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:02 am GMT
"With Portuguese people you should use Continental Portuguese,
with Brazilian people you should use Brazilian Portuguese,
in Peking you should use Mandarin Chinese, in Hong Kong Cantonese Chinese"
That would be the best way to be accepted but is not very realistic. I don't think it makes much difference to speak BP if one is living in Europe or speak EP if one lives in Brazil. As for Chinese, I can't even get through Mandarin Chinese, let alone Cantonese!!! If I ever go to Hong Kong I'll have no other choice than speaking English, Japanese or (broken) Mandarin!! :)
I'm glad people in Japan don't ask me to speak in their regional dialect since all states in Japan seem to speak in a different way and I've decided I'll only use the Osaka dialect wherever I go because it's the second mostly accepted dialect in Japan after the "hyoujungo" (Standard Japanese). I'm glad that the Swiss people I met didn't ask me to speak in Schweitzer Deutsch!!!
Rui   Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:55 am GMT
Well, as I've said in other topics before, theres no such big difference between BP and EP.
Especially on the accent as many brasilians will think you just are from other part of the country if they noticed anything different. I've been to Brasil many times and never noone misunderstood me or asked if I was Portuguese or a foreigner.

J.C. points out some examples of especific words that are different, but due to the fact that inPortugal the prime time programs on TV are Brasilian ones, here we are able to know which one is which quite easily.

I always recommend someone who wants to leran portuguese to go for the BP, but if we goes with EP theres no problem at all if he intends to work or leave in Brasil. The only advantage I see on learning Ep is that is closely to Portuguese speaking in Africa.
HappyHippo's   Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:19 pm GMT
Especially in pronouns usage, there are many differences between Continental Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese, both variants have colloquial and formal register to begin with:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_personal_pronouns
Uma brasileira   Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:43 pm GMT
De Portugal, nem bom vento nem bom casamento.
beija-flor   Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:45 pm GMT
De Portugal, nem bom vento nem bom casamento.

Agora percebo tudo
Rui   Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:50 pm GMT
"Especially in pronouns usage, there are many differences between Continental Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese, both variants have colloquial and formal register to begin with:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_personal_pronouns"

Even so, the differences are very small. And one must keep in mind that in Brasil there are differences as well. People here in Portugal listen to Brasilian music and TV shows a lot, so people are used to the Brasilian style of pronuntiation. Besides Brasilians are now the main community in the country and soon will become a very large one (like 2%-3%).

"De Portugal, nem bom vento nem bom casamento."

That's a portuguese saying concerning spain, due to the middle age's inter-marriage between royal houses which never went well.