Catalan and Spanish

guest   Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:02 pm GMT
Por algun extraño error no se encuentra la palabra emprisionar en la edicion vigesimo segunda digital del RAE, pero en los volumenes en papel de dicha edicion si que viene (yo la tengo), al igual que en el Sopena y el Maria Moliner.
Catalanòfon   Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:16 pm GMT
There is a big difference between what is patrimonial and cultism. The patrimonial and usual way to say "prison" in Spanish is "cárcel" and to "emprison" is "encarcelar". The same could be said in English where "jail" is probably much more popular than "prison".
I know the Spanish language well enough. Being a Spanish citizen I've got to although Catalan is definitely my first language.

Ahora, no te extrañes con los extraños errores que ocurren aunque no deja de ser sintomático que se lo saltasen.

Sigues sin ver la diferencia entre "populismos" y "cultismos". Los populismos nos llegan, en todas las lenguas románicas, directamente desde el latín y son fruto de la evolución de la lengua y obedecen a estas leyes evolutivas. El castellano tiene las suyas y el catalán también. Los cultismos suelen ser incorporados a posteriori y suelen usarse en contextos más formales y/o literarios.

De hecho, en catalán pasa exactamente al revés: "presó" és el populismo y "càrcer" es el cultismo que tan solo encontrarás en obras poéticas como una clásica catalana que se llama "Càrcer d'Amor". Ningún catalán sensato dice "càrcer" en catalán y, como español, estarás de acuerdo conmigo que "cárcel" tiene un uso mucho más corriente en castellano.

De todas formas, lo que pretendo comunicar es la filiación de las lenguas románicas e intento ser lo más imparcial posible.
Dawie   Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:38 pm GMT
Do Catalan-speaking bilinguals (in Catalan and Spanish) speak Spanish to the same level as mono-lingual Spanish speakers, or can you tell that Spanish is their second language?
guest   Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:58 pm GMT
"La carcel" i "la prision" són dues coses diferenciades en el dret penal. A nivell de mitjans de comunicació i de parlar del carrer, s'utilitza tant està a la presó com "està en la presó". Ni una ni una altra pertany a cultisme o populisme
guest   Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:11 pm GMT
"there is much resentment in other parts of Spain regarding this issue because for many of them it would seem Castilian should be "the main language" in Catalonia"

No hi ha cap ressentiment, tan solament hi ha frustració pel fet que en l'educació pública es relegui l'ensenyament d'espanyol a la mínima expressió. A més, la pretensió de ERC de parlar català en el congrés dels diputats mentre es "neutralitza" l'idioma espanyol en el sistema educatiu i en les institucions és una mica que indigna a la resta dels ciutadans espanyols
guest   Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:28 pm GMT
"Romance philologists now often speak of a group known as Occitan-Catalan and , which is actually a bridge between Ibero Romance and Gallo-Romance. You cannot study a language regarding the lexicon (words) only. Anyway, the basic Catalan lexicon is almost always Gallo-Romanic. Look at the parts of the body:"

Spanish Galician Portuguese Catalan French English

cuerpo corpo corpo cos corps body
dedo dedo dedo dit doigt finger
ojo ollo olho ull oeil eye
uña unlla unha ungla ongle nail
nariz nariz nariz nas nez nose
diente dente dente dent dent tooth
rodilla xeonllo joelho genoll genou knee
oreja orella orella orella oreille ear
pelo pelo pelo pèl poil hair
muslo coxa coxa cuixa cuisse thigh

Colours
azúl azul azul blau bleue blue
amarillo amarelo amarelo groc jaune yellow
verde verde verde verd verd green
negro negro negro negre noir black
rojo vermello vermelho roig rouge red
naranja laranxa laranja taronja orange orange

So body parts: 4 (cos ungla nas dit) out of 10 clearly closer to french, 2 (pel, orella) closer to iberorromanic, remaining 4 (ull dent genoll cuixa) close to both groups (maybe slightly closer to french)

colours: 2 (blau, verd) closer to french, 1 closer to iberorromanic (negre), other (groc roig taronja) close to both groups

I dont think 4 out of 10 or 2 out of 6 qualifies as almost always (and this is on the examples picked to support the argument)

"Regardings morphology Catalan is nearer the Ibero-Romance languages and syntax is half-way between French and Spanish. Nevertheless the verbs are also gal·lo-romanic and not Iberian:"
....
"
What I meant to say is that when Catalan verbs are quite different to Castilian verbs they are often similar to Occitan or French etymologies"

That really isnt what the first sentence means, and the long list given in post replied to proves it wrong, or at least is a strong counter example

But in any case I think "Regardings morphology Catalan is nearer the Ibero-Romance languages and syntax is half-way between French and Spanish" together with patrimonial lexicon being closer (but not overwhelmingly) to gallo-romanic, leads to the right conclusion: catalan is somwhere in between ibero-romanic and gallo-romanic, but cannot be said more gallo-romanic than ibero-romanic.

I think the best test would be to pick a random post and translate it into spanish, catalan and french, and just check the differences. Im pretty sure that, making allowances for the greater proximity of technical language as opposed to patrimonial, you will find written catalan sits pretty much in between french and spanish (ignoring ortographic conventions). If you try to read the text though you will see catalan is a lot closer to spanish than french, in terms of sounds used and intonation, and thats particularly true in the case of southern catalan varieties such as valencian (which Im sure catalanofon will never disqualify as catalan)
Catalanòfon   Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:01 pm GMT
It is clear you have a pro-Castilian agenda. Come on mate! Hown can you say "orella" is closer to "oreja" than to "oreille". Nègre is also French (usually meaning a French person) and I could carry on with the rest of your list but have not time to waste.

I see you are a bilingual Catalan-Spanish speaker. I also think we should be able to speak Catalan in the Congress of Madrid but we can't. As a matter of fact, that happens in other civilised countries: Belgium, Canada and Switzerland, just to name a few.

Regarding souther Catalan varieties they even keep the v/b difference, as does some Occitan dialects, French and English! Difference between s/ss and all the phonetic alphabet which makes Catalan different to Castilian.

How can you say "ull", "dent", "genoll" or "cuixa" are only slightly closer to Gallo-Romanic. Don't make me laugh please.

Actually Occitan and Catalan also say "pel" and "orella" exactly the same way...

The great fuss amongst Spanish nationalists is to prove Catalan is always more Spanish (meaning closer to Castilian) than any other language to the north. They will argue above reason and common sense.

There are many different ways of being Spanish. I'm hardly surprised so many catalans want independence.

Regarding the accent, Catalans usually speak fluent Spanish with a Catalan accent. Just to give you a rough idea it would be like a Scot speaking English with a Scotish accent. Some have a heavier accent than others but it's always quite clear.

Many Catalans feel more comfortable in Catalan than Castilian although the only monolingual Catalan speakers are very young children (who learn Castilian in school) and some older rural speakers who speak very bad Castilian.

What made me laugh most is when you said "groc" was close to both groups. Spanish says "amarillo" and French "jaune". That is one of the examples where Catalan is absolutely original and, it would seem, it is an old Germanism which can't be found in other languages. It's really unbelievable how you analyse things.

I trust the intelligence of other readers will be well above your manipulation.

In terms of phonetics Lengadocian Occitan is the closest variety to Catalan. By the way, it resembles much more Western Catalan (including Valencian) than Eastern Catalan (Eastern Catalan has a "shwa" sound (neutral "e") which doesn't exist in Occitan or Western Catalan dialects.

I que tinguis un bon dia i una bona nit. I el que vulguen els castellans a Barcelona ho volem nosaltres a Madrid. Tan sols així es pot parlar de dignitat entre els pobles. A mi no em fa mal Espanya em fa més mal opinions com les teves.
guest   Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:41 am GMT
catalnofon u should try to read post carefully and stop trying to uncover agendas everywhere, such a very spanish trait on the other hand

1. "2 (pel, orella) closer to iberorromanic" as you see i never claim them closer to spanish, but to iberorromanic, where portuguese (not the usual suspect for provencal influence) uses orella, which is an exact match.
Also "How can you say "ull", "dent", "genoll" or "cuixa" are only slightly closer to Gallo-Romanic. Don't make me laugh please.", they are not closer to spanish itself, but cant be said to be clearly closer to french versions than to portuguese galician versions, hence putting them as only slightly closer to galloromacin than to iberorromanic

There is a deeper argument to this, some of the differences you quote against iberorromanic are in fact against spanish alone, since they are exclusive traits of spanish (ue ie instead of o /e , h instead of f etc), so they shouldnt be used to classify a language as ibero/gallo/italo romanic

2. "Nègre is also French " well "hinojo" is also spanish for knee/"genoll" and although not closer is definitely in the same trunk, however I didnt include it since I thought we were talking about the most used terms for the same concept. Funny how you wax lyrical about whether "carcer" is a cultism in catalan and so the right comparison is between "preso" and "carcel", and then you fall into the same trap you criticize when it suits your argument. Thats very disappointing, "voir" dishonnest

3. "What made me laugh most is when you said "groc" was close to both groups. Spanish says "amarillo" and French "jaune". That is one of the examples where Catalan is absolutely original and, it would seem, it is an old Germanism which can't be found in other languages. It's really unbelievable how you analyse things" Well now I have to apologize, since indeed its not closer to any group, me putting it in the category of equally close to both groups tried to reflect just that, not to count it for one or the other, but did you not quote it as an example of links between catalan and gallo-romanic?

I dont think there is any need to appeal to the readers intelligence to unmask manipulations, my numbers still stand, only 6 out of 16 of YOUR examples can be said to be clearly on a gallo-romanic trunk and not on a ibero-romanic trunk, and we are talking about patrimonial lexicon which is admitedly the stronger connection with gallo-romanic group

But in any case I wonder why you get so upset, since im mostly agreeing with you, ie catalan lies somewhere between ibero-romanic and gallo-romanic. I just wouldnt go about dismissing out of hand the relationship with the ibero-romanic group, because thats simply not borne out by the facts (ie the many examples seen in these pages).

Once again, do the simple test, translate a couple of random posts in this thread into spansih catalan and french, I believethe result will be pretty much in the middle, but closer to spanish. Then try to read it in the three languages, it will be a lot closer to spanish than french, and thats the very simple reason why spanish and catalan (speech) are mutually intelligible, whilst spanish or catalan (speech) and french arent. And you can try and join the francophonie if you want, that wont change :)

Y bueno si mis opiniones sobre la proximidad de unas u otras palabras a unos u otros grupos ya te ponen enfermo y te despiertan llamamientos a la independencia es que tienes la sesera cocida de tanto mirarte al ombligo :)
Tiffany   Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:59 am GMT
<<Catalanòfon,

The Antimoon Forum rules state that messages are to be in English and that if you do post something in a foreign (non-English) language a translation should be provided:>>

The rules do not actually state this, though I think that would be a great addition. However, I have not seen you try to enforce this rule on any other thread, with any other person. I'd like to see it more widely enforced. There are many other people on even this thread that post in other languages. And then the Vive Le Quebec thread?

Truthfully, the fact that you told only him this makes you seem partial and even arrogant as it could be seen that you only told him because his views differ from yours.
*CarloS*   Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:40 am GMT
Do Catalan and Occitan represent a linguistic transiton from French to Spanish?

French => Occitan => Catalan => Spanish?
Guest   Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:05 am GMT
>>Truthfully, the fact that you told only him this makes you seem partial and even arrogant as it could be seen that you only told him because his views differ from yours.<<

Yup, the Quebec thread is full of untranslated French, and other threads in languages other than English, go untranslated.

Brennus' views? His statements are often fundamentally inaccurate or just plain wrong.
Catalanòfon   Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:33 am GMT
Dear Brennus
Not only have you told me off regarding the language I use (I only answered in Catalan to a "Guest" who sent me messages in Catalan, or didn't you realise it) but you have also wiped off those Catalan language posts. They could, at least, serve the purpose of comparing Catalan and Castilian and many of our readers can read Romance languages as has been proven elsewhere.

The problem regarding Romance philology is that you can't only use outdated bibliography from the 1950s and even before as you often do. Regarding the authors of your theories, the things could be even worse. All Romance language departments now teach the Occitan-Romance group as a bridge between Gallo and Ibero Romance. Please check this with a nice letter to all those university departments. That has been going on for well over 30 years now!

Regarding seeing "political agendas" as a Spanish trait you Americans must have inhererited this from Europeans as a whole; more I would say, from all humankind. "Politics" comes from "polis" the life in the cities and, therefore, in society.

I am really disapointed. I stopped writing here as Jordi a few months ago and I vividly remember your inaccuracies. Now you administrate the place and it makes it even worse. At least MJD was a great Portuguese language scholar. Furthermore, a language thread was established in ANTIMOON to let us at that. Greg writes in French and only French all the time and nothing happens (quite interesting what Greg writes).

So I trust you will not make an English language message vanish as you've done before. I haven't asked for independence in my message. If you read them carefully (and in Catalan) I told my Catalan friend that views such as this is what makes some Catalans want to be independent since they don't feel at ease. I told him that he's the "separatist". I'm certainly not although I defend my right to live in Catalan in my home country and that includes the same duties for everybody.

I will not make personal remarks, you've made them all. I trust you will be happy with your small Internet kingdom. I have given you (free of charge and pleased to do so) a few classes of Romance and Catalan philology.

It's a fact Catalan and Occitan are twin sisters (although different languages) the same way Castilian and Portuguese are. All Romance philologists (I happen to be one) know this. And yet that doesn't make Portuguese a dialect of Spanish although you would have Catalan a dialect of Spanish because you probably read that from some Franco fascist author. In the 1940s school books in Spain told us that Galician and Catalan were dialects of Castilian (what a laugh) and they wouldn't dare with basque although they also named it "a dialect" (of what?).

Brennus get a life. Even better, get back to colllege. You have the linguistic ambition but you lack the trade.

As you know I was brought up in a Catalan speaking family in Australia and I was born in France of Catalan parents and I am a Spanish national from birth. Don't try to fool me although you can try to fool others.

If anybody reads this thread and sees it rubbed out, I would ask you to denounce it in all other threads.
JGreco   Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:37 am GMT
I don't understand why people in Catalonia want to isolate themselves so much and isolate their culture now in this modern age. Yes their was suppression of their language in the past centuries. But all these laws to restrict Spanish and promote Catalan are sounding very socialistic. The Catalan government seems to be going on the same route that the Quebec government is going in restriction of English in Quebec. I wouldn't be supprised if the Catalan government outlaws spanish all together. Catalonia as being apart of a region of spain has made contributions in the development of Latin America. Many people in Latin America have Catalan surnames. Yes the language was lost but their still was contribution as part of the Spanish entity. What is the use of creating Catalonian monolinguist. Spain is a country of many ethnicities as many other countries are and you don't see them going crazy like the crazed catalonian government. What Spain shouldn't have created autonomous regions in the first place. Countries such as Italy and Romania has many diverse cultural regions without autonomous seperation and their countries are relatively stable. Autonomy fuels the fires of seperation and the break up of a country.
Catalanòfon   Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:19 am GMT
All serious studies, carried out even by the central Spanish government, will prove that Catalonia has the most multilingual youn population in Spain: not only in Catalan and Castilian but also in English and, quite often, French, German or Italian.

There are many more monolingual in monolingual areas of Spain than in Catalonia. There are Catalan monolinguals in Catalonia. Another thing is the place Catalan should have in its own territory.

So you would have all of us Catalan having Castilian as our only official language? By the way, the "crazed" Catalan Government, concerning this issue, makes up for 90% of Catalan voters. I agree Catalans have made a contribution not only in Catalonia, Spain and the Americas (or wherevever they have settled, even in far away Australia) but also in Europe.

We are, after all, a democracy. Not a word to Brennus for rubbing out my messages and not understanding their meaning and trying to know much more Romance philology than he actually does? Greco, Greco!
Catalanòfon   Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:24 am GMT
Where I said "there are monolingual in Catalonia" please read "there aren't Catalan monolingual in Catalonia". The law forbids "monolingualism" in Catalonia and although Catalan might be the vehicle of education, Spanish is also well taught and all Catalans speak fluent Spanish by the time they've finished primary school. Castilian television and music are also very popular and people watch programmes in both languages wiithout any problem.