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Catalan and Spanish
Everybody knows Catalonia receives lots of subsidies from the rest of Spain; that Catalans, en masse, have flooded other Spanish autonomies because they can't live at home (Catalonia has received about 3 million immigrants in the past 50 years and that explains the situation of the language, specially in the metropolitan area of Barcelona but not in all the country); that Catalonia receives much more that it gives to the rest of the state, that Barcelona is a dull, dreadful, boring and empoverished city; that Catalan business and exports-imports to the world are non-existent, that culture language and culture is folkloric and regional compared to the big themes chosen by those who write Castilian etc, etc. etc. LOL
Are you happy, now?
Regarding the text you've chosen it's all about people pissing, vomiting and lighting bonfires in the street, somewhere in Guinardó (Barcelona). It's clearly a revolting, mediaeval scene that can only happen in awkward Barcelona. We should be happy to have received civilisation from the rest of the peninsula (not Portugal, Andorra nor Gibraltar, of course.) You won't expect me, of course, to make a phonetic transcription for you. The only thing I can tell those who are interested is that there must be ONLINE radio stations and that the most popular television in Catalonia is TV3 in Catalan (watched by as many native Castilian speakers as you can imagine living in Catalonia). It's funny to see Castilian-Spanish nationalists defending their cause in Catalan. That's new and it means Catalan has even more local prestige than I thought.
The fact is you speak lightly on that 40% of immigrants (not all are Castilian speakers and many come from Northern Africa, Eastern Europe, Central Africa, Asia and other places), who often adopt Catalan in the first and second generation and who become as native Catalan as those whose families have been here for centuries. I understand pretty much the same happens in the US, where second and third generation people of Spanish speaking background become native English speakers. It even happens in London, Paris or Madrid.
It is absolutely true that Catalan children end up their primary school knowing both Catalan and Castilian. The fact is "Castilian-Spanish nationalism" would want them to have a much better level of Spanish than Catalan. What the Catalan system ensures is that the knowledge of both languages be at the same level. The presence of Castilian and the State is already strong enough in Catalonia as it is.
The fact is a Catalan family moving to Madrid cannot have their children learning Catalan in school. I have friends who moved to Sweden and the Swedish government ensured they children could carry on with Catalan language and culture in school. Some Spaniards will be surprised that they didn't choose Castilian. Well, we know what choices are all about, don't we?
De hecho, desde el principio supe que eras Jordi por tus extensos y aburridos comentarios en ingles, frances y catalán aquel tocahuevos que se largó hace unos meses de este foro y que dijo que nunca más iba a volver.
Bueno, Jordi, no tengo ni puñetera idea de Catalan y nunca me ha interesado aprenderlo, tan solo te estaba vacilando. Es tan fácil engañar a un catalán que el solemne bobo de zapatero que mira que es bobo, está engañando a toda la "clase" (que de clase no tiene un pelo) catalana.
http://www.internostrum.com/tradquadtext.php
Es una buena página web para que los pueblerinos catalanes piensen que somos de los suyos. LOL. Y para que después digan que los traductores automáticos no sirven.
Hala, a seguir quejandose, que eso lo hacéis muy bien los catalanitos
Of course I knew you were using an electronic translator. There were too many syntax errors and small things. I just thought it was funny to have a Castilian-Spanish nationalist taking the trouble of translating his things to Catalan and pretending he was Catalan. 99% of the fuss about Catalan in Catalonia comes from outside Catalonia.
My Español-Castellano friend tells me I'm a "tocahuevos" (a balls toucher) meaning, of course, a nuisance. Nevertheless, I can tell you I'm more much useful outside of this forum.
Yes, of course, we complain all the time and we should be thankful for your kind protection. You make it extremely difficult for us to be Spanish but yes, we are much more Spanish than you are and we always have been. Simply because we're Catalans.
I que et fotin! (fotre in Catalan, fotre in Occitan, foutre in French and "joder" in Spanish with a hard harsh "j").
Tus propios comentarios anteriores te delatan. Te habías creido que era uno de los tuyos. No me extraña que mientas, todo catalanoparlante lo hace.
" only answered in Catalan to a "Guest" who sent me messages in Catalan, or didn't you realise it"
"They could, at least, serve the purpose of comparing Catalan and Castilian and many of our readers can read Romance languages as has been proven elsewhere"
"I told my Catalan friend that views such as this is what makes some Catalans want to be independent since they don't feel at ease."
Un catalanoparlante diciendo que es mas español que un "castellano", ve y haztelo ver.(para esta gente castellano es aquel que vive fuera de cataluña)
" we are much more Spanish than you are and we always have been. Simply because we're Catalans".
La lógica esta es abrumadora.
"I que et fotin!"
Se nota que tus padres no te enseñaron español en las antipodas. En español se dice "que te jodan" y con mas contundencia "que te follen"
"I que et fotin" Catalan
"Y que te follen" Spanish
Por cierto, te has vuelto mucho mas radical y grosero que la ultima vez que estuviste por aqui. No me digas que tienes una empresa de cava :)
Brennus, as you can see I answer in English to Castilian Spanish monolingual messages.
VivaEspaña my sense of irony is much higher than yours and it includes following uyour game. Remember I was brought up in an Anglo-Saxon culture of Catalan parents.
I agree my parents didn't teach mean Castilian in the Antipodes. How could they. They're Catalan!
And I did say "fotre" is "joder" in Castilian and, of course, "follar", specially used by less traditional and younger generations.
Did you know where selling all our "cava" (Catalan champagne) to the rest of Spain and that you've been drinking Catalan cava with an Extremeña, Valencian or Asturian label. You won't deny we're good at business, and yes my father sells cava all over Spain (LOL)
Look we were Spanish as long ago as you were. It's not my fault if you usurped the word and made it a small regional thing.
Why is the independence movement of Quebec supported and not the independence movement of Catalonia?
To an "evil anglo" (hahahaha), it looks very suspicious. Had Catalonia been a part of Britain, might the reaction be different?
It is weird how you can make just a single comment and it explodes into a fight of words among the people of Spain. I think its good that Spain is a multi-ethnic country. It adds to the flavor of the people. Spain as a whole is a country of many languages. It is kind of sad that the attitude of castillian speakers being monolingual like most americans isn't good. I heard someine comment on a past message that the spanish refuse to understand Catalan and Portuguese. Is this saying that all a Castillian speaker has to do is just concentrate and listen and they can kind of understand Catalan because there has been others in this forum that have insisted that Catalan is completly unintelligable to Castillian. Too bad the same attitudes about castillian monolinguist have influenced the attitudes of american castillian speakers.
Literacy
According to the 2001 Linguistic Census [15], about 5,900,000 people in Catalonia, nearly 95% of residents, understand the Catalan language. The percentage of people aged two and older who can speak, read and write Catalan is as follows:
Knowledge of Catalan
Ability Individuals Percentage
Understands 5,872,202 94.5%
Speaks 4,630,640 74.5%
Reads 4,621,404 74.4%
Writes 3,093,223 49.8%
Population 6,215,281 100%
Over the last 20 years, knowledge of Catalan has advanced significantly in all these areas, with the ability to write it having experienced the most pronounced increase, from 31.6% of the population in 1986 to 49.8% in 2001.
By age groups, those between 10 and 29 have the higher level of Catalan-language literacy (e.g., 98.2% aged 10–14 understand it, and 85.2% can write it); this is attributed to these individuals having received their full education in Catalan.
Geographically, Catalan is most understood in northwest Catalonia (Alt Pirineu, Val d'Aran), at 97.4%, followed by south and western Catalonia, whereas Barcelona's metropolitan area sees the lowest knowledge, at 93.8%. The situation is analogous for written-language skills, with central Catalonia scoring the highest percentages (61.4%), and Barcelona the lowest (46.4%).
Barcelona is one of the centres of the Spanish book industry in Spanish and the main one for Catalan-language publishing.
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Social Use
According to a study carried out in 2003 by the Generalitat de Catalunya [16], Catalan is used by 50.1% of the population in everyday situations.
Significantly, over 55% of respondents use Spanish to address their parents (versus 42% who choose Catalan). This is attributed to massive immigration from southern Spain from the second half of the 20th century until the 1980s, as a consequence of which many Catalans have one or both parents from outside Catalonia. However, a majority (52.6%) use Catalan with their children (42.3% Spanish). This can be attributed to some Spanish-speaking citizens shifting from their mother tongue to Catalan at home.
Outside the family, 48.6% of the population indicate that they address strangers exclusively or preferentially in Catalan, while the proportion of those who use Spanish is 41.7%. 8.6% claim to use both equally.
See Catalan language for further information.
Certes. Et la Provence à un temps faisait partie de la Catalogne. Voci le pourquoi le drapeau provençal sont les quatre barres rouges sur champ d'or des comtes de Barcelona.
C'est l'histoire! Toujours si compliquée et mal enseignée par le pouvoir présent.
Catalanòfon : la Provence n'a jamais fait partie de la Catalogne. Raimond-Bérenger III de Catalogne a pris le titre de comte de Provence — sous le nom de Raimond-Bérenger Ier —, car la maison de Barcelone a reçu par mariage le titre des comtes de Provence. Mais la Provence d'alors n'était pas que comtale : il y avait également le marquisat de Provence (terre vassale du Saint-Empire Romain déténue par le comte de Toulouse — accessoirement un vassal du roi de France).
Le comté de Provence faisait néanmoins partie du royaume de France : http://www.tu-dresden.de/sulcifra/frankreich/ma/comtes/provinzen.gif . Et je crois que le comte de Barcelone est resté vassal du roi de France assez longtemps. Je crois que c'est Saint Louis qui a renoncé en 1258 au comté de Barcelone (traité de paix avec l'Aragon).
je suis d´accord avec Grec. Catalonia belongs to France
Mon très cher Greg.
Il est difficile de parler d'histoire dans un forum. En tout cas la Provence devient française assez tard et la bataille de Muret 1213 se fera entre la Maison de Barcelone (roi d'Aragon et comte de Barcelone) qui est appelée par ses "frères" toulousains pour combattre "le français". Les textes et les poèmes occitans sont très clairs et parle bien de l'enemi "français". La Catalogne est indépendante depuis bien avant bien qu'il ne soit pas étrange que la Maison de France se considère heritière unique et privilegiée de l'Empire Carolingien et du "destin" de l'Empire. De la même façon que les castillans ont toujours consideré qu'ils étaient les héritiers de l'Hispania romaine bien que le mot "espagnol" apparaît dabord pour parler des catalans de la part des occitans et français. Evidemment, l'histoire est toujours écrite par ceux qui gagnent. Le reste n'était pas d'accord, bien sûr. Les occitans, bien sûr, se considèrent, à l'immense majorité, français de nos jours en dehors de quelques cercles très minoritaires. Le sentiment nacionaliste, comme tu sais bien, est beaucoup plus fort en Catalogne parce que nous sommes resté un pouvoir indépendant de Castille jusqu'à 1714.
Ce n'est qu'en 1481, après le court règne de Charles III du Maine, que la Provence devient française. Créé en 1501 par Louis XII, le Parlement de Provence, cour souveraine de justice, entend défendre les privilèges provençaux face à la politique centralisatrice des rois de France.
Et, le français ne sera pas obligatoire qu'après l' Ordonnance de Viliers-Coterêts de 1539 (François I). La fancisation lingüistique officielle de l'Occitanie est assez tardive et, comme tu sais bien, l'occitan restera la langue populaire jusqu'à la Grand Guerre (1914-18) et dans certaines régions plus conservatrices jusqu'aux années 50.
Felicitacio catalanofon.
Le plus grand mépris. c'est l'ignorance. Sur ce coup la. J'apprécie les quelques leçons d'histoires. Bien qu'aujourd'hui, nous soyons dans un siècle de communication. Je constate qu'on a toujours autant de mal à faire passer l'information comme plusieurs siècles en arièrre.
A titre d'information: on peut retrouver toutes ces informations auprès des églises ( attention: Bien connaître le latin). Je vous rappelle qu'à cette époque, les seules qui savaient écrire étaient l'église et l'aristocratie.
I have been following this thread with much interest. All the contributors are very knowledgeable. I have learned a lot from reading the posts.
However, regarding Catalunya, its economy, politics and language Catalanòfon asserts that "We are, after all, a democracy." Well....depends how you define that. Many hundreds of thousands (yes, hundreds of thousands) of people living, working and paying taxes in Catalunya ( local, national, and to Madrid) are systematically denied a vote in elections. I pay taxes, I have an empadromiento.....I'm not allowed to vote. WHY NOT? I know someone who has lived here in BCN for 26 years, paid taxes, social security, given birth to a Catalan child, and is still not allowed to vote! I suspect that if those who settle here were given the vote BCN would have a mayor/alcalde of South American origin....and the promotion of catalan would quickly be sidelined. Have you seen the inward migration figures for the past few years? It doesn't take much maths or understanding of demographics to add up the potential........
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