Catalan and Spanish

Jordi   Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:33 pm GMT
Spanish laws apply all over Spain and not only Catalonia. Immigration laws are passed in Madrid, meaning by the central Spanish government. It isn't a local Catalan affair.

Furthermore, citizenship laws are the same within most European countries. Citizenship laws are the same in Great Britain, France, Germany, Italy and Spain, etc. for European Union countries.European Union citizens can vote in all those countries.

I imagine your Catalan must be as fluent as your English. After all, you have lived 26 years in Catalonia and I'm sure you have learnt both the official languages in the autonomous region. You seem to be a highly reasonable and intelligent woman (having given birth to a child I imagine you must be a woman.)

The case is to attack the weakest language even if it's the language of the land.

If you have given birth to a Catalan child and have lived so many years in Catalonia why don't you apply for Spanish citizenship? Catalan citizenship doesn't exist from a political state point of view.

I imagine you can't vote in the USA or Canada if you're not a citizen. I imagine you can't even do that in the country you left so many years ago looking for wider horizons.

My family lived many years in other countries (I was even born in another country of Catalan parents) and we never voted and I never got a school grant because I wasn't eligible. We chose to remain Catalan Spanish and we, of course, paid the price for it.
Dinis   Thu Mar 02, 2006 7:12 pm GMT
Dear Jordi,
I really enjoy your posts. I cannot understand why the Castilian nationalists are so opposed to Catalan and Catalonia. I lived in Barcelona and Lloret de Mar briefly in the late seventies. I was so impressed by the Catalans as indivduals and as a community, I cannt fully express my admiration and the land, itself, is paradise!
All Spaniards should be bursting with pride for the precious link they have to the rest of Latin Europe (in a special manner to the Gallo - and Occitano-Romance speaking peoples) through Valencia and Catalonia. Your Catalan customs ie the Sardanna, the gift of a book and a rose on the day of the Catalan Language, the ancient Benedictine traditions of Montserrat, the emphasis on art since the Romanesque, and the cuisine are ( I truly believe) Divinely inspired. I am a Mexican-American from California; my home-state was practically founded and, certainly, missionized by a Catalan, Blessed Junipero Serra. We are rightfully proud of this fine good-hearted man as he would be of the modern Catalans, had he lived to meet the excellent human beings I came to know in my youth in Catalonia. Think abou it California's original link to Spain was via the beauty of a Catalan's soul. Please continue educating us on catalan y los paises catalanes y que viva Catalun~a, tierra bendita de Dios, para siempre!
Jordi   Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:09 pm GMT
Moltes gràcies i benvingut a Catalunya, un país que no has deixat mai.

Thank you very much and welcome to Catalonia, a country you have never left.
Pablo   Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:36 pm GMT
Jordi, i can´t find a country named Catalonia or Catalunya in my atlas. Can you help me? No joke. I have nothing against people speaking catalán, or feeling the catalán culture, but please, what can think the rest of europeans about the request of speak catalán at the european parlament? It sounds very funny to me. And by the way: ¿castilian nationalists? you mean the people who think that Madrid is part of Castilla y Leon or what. If you like catalán, note my advise; put apart all that stuff abut how many people speak catalán and all that things that can be asociate to the nacionalist conflict and people will take you more seriously.
From Castilla with love.
Pablo
JOrdi   Sun Mar 12, 2006 7:34 pm GMT
It's funny isn't it and yet, we Catalan, feel no need at all to be known as what we are not.
I'm so pleased to see Castilla loves us so much to the point of wanting us to be thought of as Castilians in the rest of the world. We'd rather be what we are.

By the way, by a better atlas. Catalonia was a nation long before it became a part of Spain. It isn't an independent nation any longer but it still is a nation. No doubt about that.

Remember that England, Scotland or Wales wouldn't be nations either since your poor Atlas will probably say "Great Britain".
Pablo   Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:32 pm GMT
You are right Jordi. I know that Scotland and Wales have each one a national team of football. But Spain, you know, isnt like Great Britain, and definetly Cataluña isnt like Scotland. I dont want catalan to be desapeard because i have nothing against catalan, but i feel that SOME catalans (see ERC for example) really hate spanish. It´s like when the fascist "Paco Franco" ruled Spain. I dont know what he had against catalan culture but he tryed to destroy it. At the present day it´s the same but in the other side (I don´t know if you understand me, my english is very bad). Some catalans wants Cataluña to be a single nation, ok, they can want what they like. But by now, Spain is a Nation, not a states federation so please dont said that Cataluña is a nation bacause it isnt true.
Gaudi, Dalí, Boadella, Buenafuente,... they are ( or were ) people that i really like, and THEY ARE FROM CATALUÑA. Can you see? It isnt a spanish identidy problem. It is a catalan mistake to think that Spain makes Cataluña weaker. Spain makes Cataluña a greater region like the European Union makes Spain a greater country. Union makes force.
Again, sorry about my bad english.
Aldo   Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:29 pm GMT
Quienes son de Espana? Mi descendencia proviene de Andaluz y Castilla la mancha. Soy Mexicano, evidentemente...tambien parlo el Castellano de Espana adecuadamente y se los terminos espanoles. Cuales son las diferencias entre Andaluz y Castilla (la mancha?)
*CarloS*   Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:14 am GMT
>>>tambien parlo el Castellano de Espana adecuadamente y se los terminos espanoles.<<<

Isn't "parlo" a despective way to say "I speak"?
Jordi   Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:50 am GMT
Dear Carlos:

"Parlo" isn't a despective or a Castilian Spanish way to say "I seoak". It's simply how we say it in Catalan.

And yes, Catalonia is as much a nation as Scotland or Wales are. We are "Spanish" the way the Scots, English or Welsh are "British". We belong to the same political state and share a lot together but we are a different culture and nation. You've got to consider that was the case until the 18th century and that most native Catalans have always expressed their wish to be thought of as a different "nation". Many of the errors in Spanish politics in the past three centuries come from the fact that many would like us to stop being Catalans. By the way Gaudi was a monolingual Catalan speaker who never spoke a word of Spanish in public and was arrested for that fact.

That doesn't mean we don't like the Spanish language or the Spanish people. After all, we are bilingual -in Cataland and Spanish- and you aren't.

And it is only too fair to be able to speak in the European Parliament in an important historical, literary and alive European language such as ours. After all, we pay our taxes and are Europeans being Catalans. Catalan isn't either worse or better than Castilian Spanish.
Sorin   Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:26 pm GMT
Jordi, considering the cultural, historical and linguistic barrier between the Spaniards and Catalonians, and after Franco's death and the adoption of the constitution in Spain, I wonder why didn’t you, Catalonians proclaim a total independence from Spain, and declare a sovereign state: Catalonia ?

In my opinion, Catalonia with a population of nearly 7 000 000, a suitable capital like Barcelona, looks like a potential sovereign state.

One more thing. Is it true about Franco being declared a saint by the pope ?
Tiffany   Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:27 pm GMT
I feel if you are for Quebec to become its own sovereign nation, you must be for Catalonia to be separate as well. I would ask if anyone has a differing view and why, but this question really isn't about languages - which this forum is supposed to be about.
Jordi   Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:34 pm GMT
It would be absolutely impossible for Spain to acknowledge the independence of Catalonia even in the case that the majority of Catalans would vote for it. Most catalans are aware of this. Therefore, Catalans are trying to live as comfortably as possible in the present state and trying to change things within the Spanish political framework towards a more federal state.

That, of course, isn't understood by those who would want a monolingual and monocultural Spain based on the traditional Castilian Spanish hegemony since the 16th and specially the 18th century. They can accept us speaking Catalan "at home" or dancing the "Sardana" but they hardly understand our right to be known as Catalans throughout the world. The fact is Catalonia has a huge prestige at many levels and all over the planet and Catalans will very often answer they are Catalans before they tell you they can also be Spanish. Ins't that what an Englishman says before he tells you he's British?

Regarding Franco being declared a saint by the pope I don't think that will ever happen -the most extreme rightist movements would probably agree and campaign for it-- although quite a few lesser Francoist men and women of religion have already been declared saints by the pope based on religious persecution or "holyness". Nevertheless, a lot would have to be said about how really saintly and Catholic many of them were to those who didn`t think like them.
Pablo   Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:23 pm GMT
Ok Jordi, tell us the truth. Do you think that most of the catalans wants Cataluña to be a nation? Wath is doing Boadella, do you think he is ok? Do you think it´s right to isolate spanish in the region of Cataluña? Are you agree with the ideas of the Tripartit? Don´t you think that the Estatut is the first stept to the independence of Cataluña? Do you really think that Cataluña and the catalans would be better in a independent Cataluña. Don´t you feel proud about your country partners; about the andaluces, the gallegos, the vascos, and so many others?
Cataluña and the other comunities forms the fisical and politic DEMOCRATIC MONARCHY of the nation of Spain, it is said by the constitution, voted by the majority of the spanish (included the catalans), so if Cataluña really wants the independence, it should be given by the whole Spain, not only by the catalans.

Ah, and explain me who the hell are those "independentistas castellanos" [:\} I´m from Palencia and i can tell you that, first; no one castellano want Spain to be exactly like Castilla y Leon (we don´t think we are the center of the universe), and second; Spain is known by outsiders most of the times like a big Andalucía not a big Castilla y Leon.

I know that this forum is not for this stuff but, please Jordy, explain me your poit of view about this things.

Asking if Saint Franco :0 had ever exist, no, never. The only thing is that Franco apear some times "bajo palio", a special treatment for Bishops and Popes. Remember that Franco was "Generalísimo por la gracia de Dios" so we can see that Franco had a special relationship whit the Catholic Church, yes.

Again, sorry for my bad english.
Jordi   Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:16 pm GMT
Pablo;
Is it so difficult to understand Catalans want to be Catalans and that we are nor better nor worse than anybody else. Castellanos don't need to be independentists. Why should they? They've imposed their language and culture to the rest of us.

Catalans are the biggest polyglots in Spain since not only are we bilingual in Castilian, although nobody ever asked us if we wanted that, we very often speak other languages.

And yes; Catalonia is a nation and 90 per cent of Catalans voted for the three major parties or tripartito.

As I said in my previous message you will never let us go even if 100 per cent of Catalans voted for independence. What you say proves my point. Nevertheless; we'll try to remain as Catalan as possible; with your permission of course. You even think it's ridiculous for us to speak Catalan in Brussels. You, of course, love us. And my name is Jordi not Jordy.

Why don't they teach you other Spanish cultures in Palencia? A good question and a bad answer. I'm sure.
Oyster   Sat Mar 18, 2006 1:26 pm GMT
Catalonia and Canary Islands will remain Spanish, Madeira and the Azors will remain Portuguese, Tahiti and Society Islands will remain French, American Samoa and Hawaii will remain American.


That*s it
Face it, accept it

No more wars!