|
|
Portuguese + Spanish the fastest growing western languages
««Brazil is losing the Portuguese language and will most likely be speaking a Brazilian made language but not Spanish. as theri national language.»»
You mean Brazil is going to speak a creole of Portuguese? "a Brazilian made language" sounds nice! But you mean made of what?
Brazil is speaking many creoles of Portuguese already. The Portuguese language has desintegrated in Brazil to a point of no return.
Because Brazilians have rejected Portuguese as their national language, to deal with such a varity of Portuguese creoles and thevarity of national Indian languages they will need a lingua franca . Because they dislike historic Portuguese, Spanish will be their national lingua franca for obvious reasons. It is already hapenning because Spanish is being forced on Brazilians by a huge Spanish language agenda. With time, Braziians will accept Spanish as their national lingua franca similar to what happend in India where English works as the lingua franca. Spanish speaking countries are betting on it already. Millions are being spent already on that agenda. Brazilians will welcome Spanish because they would rather have Spanish as their national language than to capitulate to having Portuguese as their lingua franca.
We like Portuguese, but we just don't like Portugal-based grammar rules and vocabulary. We're not Portuguese, our language usage reflects our Portuguese, European-non-POrtuguese, Native American and African influences.
Imposing a 100%Portuguese language on us would be a brazilicide. We ain't Portuguese. We don't wanna speak like Portuguese. We don't give a damn about Portuguese grammar written in Lisbon. We will speak the way we want. TCHAU!
Brazilera -
You will speak Spanish and the grammar will come from Madrid which is the place where all Spanish grammars come from. That is why Spanish is a major world language, that is why Brazil will be a Spanish speaking country soon. That is why Portuguese will never become a major world language. Brazilians made it impossible. Spanish speaking countries are cashing on that already. Shame on Brazilians that have brought the Portuguese language from a viable world language to a pit of unintelligible creoles. Shame on you. Shame on your hatred for everything Portuguese. You will pay a price for that: Spanish grammar!
I dont know what it is that makes Brazilians hate Portugal. I dont know of any Latin American that hates Spain. There shouldn't be a "Brazil" portuguese and an "European" portuguese. It should all be portuguese. I do not know why some have chosen to do this to Spanish (Latin American vs. European Spanish), since they are the same thing. Just because Argentinan Spanish replaces "Tu" with "Vos", Caribbean Spanish replaces "ado" with "ao", and European Spanish pronnounces "ç"s with a lisp, doesnt mean that one is necessarily incorrect over the other. That is just the spoken Spanish. It is acceptable to use "Vos" in Mexico, it is acceptable to use "Tu" in Argentina and it is acceptable to pronnounce your "ç"s like "S"s instead of "th"s in Spain. All those little differences are part of the countries culture, not the overall language. Unless there is unity between the speakers of the language, the language will not survive.
GODOT Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:35 pm GMT
««Brazil is speaking many creoles of Portuguese already. The Portuguese language has desintegrated in Brazil to a point of no return. »» Really? Give me an example. Have you heard an Australian speaking English? ««Because Brazilians have rejected Portuguese as their national language, to deal with such a varity of Portuguese creoles and thevarity of national Indian languages they will need a lingua franca.»» In what news paper did it came? I don't remember reading anything about Brazilians rejecting the Portuguese language. Brazilians do not have a problem with lingua franca there is always Tupi or Nhengatu.LOL ««Because they dislike historic Portuguese, Spanish will be their national lingua franca for obvious reasons.»» Brazilians don't dislike historical Portuguese they love it so much that they want it just for them selves. What do you think this is all about? ««It is already hapenning because Spanish is being forced on Brazilians by a huge Spanish language agenda.»» Come on forced? It is just a language. It is good to learn languages. ««With time, Braziians will accept Spanish as their national lingua franca similar to what happend in India where English works as the lingua franca. Spanish speaking countries are betting on it already. Millions are being spent already on that agenda.»» Keep wishing. ««Brazilians will welcome Spanish because they would rather have Spanish as their national language than to capitulate to having Portuguese as their lingua franca.»» Heavens no, who said that?LOL. The Brazilians nationalists want Portuguese for themselves otherwise they would be talking Tupi, not Spanish.
Brazilera Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:50 pm GMT
««We like Portuguese, but we just don't like Portugal-based grammar rules and vocabulary. We're not Portuguese, our language usage reflects our Portuguese, European-non-POrtuguese, Native American and African influences. Imposing a 100%Portuguese language on us would be a brazilicide.»» Of course you like Portuguese otherwise we would not be fighting all the time.LOL. The problem is that you do not understand that Brazilian Portuguese is accepted by the Portuguese people and the grammar you use is the one your government makes you use not the Portuguese people. So why do you complain about the Portuguese of Portugal? You have to complain about the Portuguese of Brazil, your own grammar.
Read all about Spanish taking over in Brazil
El español en Brasil Francisco Moreno Fernández http://spanish.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://cvc.cervantes.es/obref/anuario/anuario%5F00/moreno/
CANTIGA DE AMIGO
Quantas sabedes amar amigo treides comigo al mar de Vigo, e banhar-nos-emos nas ondas. Quantas sabedes d'amar amado treides comigo ao mar levado, e banhar-nos-emos nas ondas. Treides comigo ao mar de Vigo, e veeremo-lo meu amigo, e banhar-nos-emos nas ondas. Treides comigo ao mar levado, e veeremo-lo meu amado, e banhar-nos-emos nas ondas. [Martin Codax] Galician-Portuguese XIII century
I think it's more likely that English will become the national language of Brazil (but not before a couple of generations). The Portuguese used in Brazil already shows many anglicisms, both grammatical and vocabular.
In fact, one of the things that make many portuguese readers reject brazillian translations is the too easy adoption of anglicisms, apparently without checking if there's a portuguese word. For instance, from my "brazillian" economics book in Law school, I remember reading several times "alocação", from English "allocation", when the proper word in Portuguese is "distribuição". Yet, the translator sometimes used "distribuição" to translate the same word, so there was no coherence at all. So, if so many Brazillians keep beeing 1. so vulnerable to English influence and 2. so much in denial of Portuguese language, the probable result for them will be loosing a non-national language for another non-national language (but much more fancy, I give them credit for that).
Rui
All languages are vulnerable to American English these days. I agree with you that Brazilians are careless about how they interject English words in their lingo. They have no understanding that the Portuguese language is a romance language and that to keep the language coherent one needs to keep those connections in place. Brazilians believe that anything goes. Yet, one thing is to interject localisms or a completely new word, another thing is to tamper with words that are already in place. About English becoming Brazil's national language, I desagree. Spanish is a stronger candidate. Brazil will first become bilingual Portuguese/Spanish and then it will evolve to bilingual Spanish/Portuguese and finally Spanihs/Spanish. This is according to the Spanish language agenda for Brazil. Is is being implemented already by a very strong language lobby directed by the Cervantes Institute. Millions of dollaras were allocated for the project. It will happen sooner than you think. Part of the agenda is to turn young Brazilians against Portugal and the Portuguese language.
««Part of the agenda is to turn young Brazilians against Portugal and the Portuguese language.»»
Brazilians do a pretty good job on their own without the help of the Spaniards. You should not give so much credit to the Spaniards.LOL. ««About English becoming Brazil's national language, I disagree. Spanish is a stronger candidate.»» I have a completely different opinion. As Brazilians do not learn languages, at least the majority of the population, this is what I think it may happen in the future, maybe at the same time with intergalactic voyages. LOL: Each state in Brazil will have its own Creole as they already have many regional differences in vocabulary, accent etc. The country will be divided because one State will think that his Creole version is better than all the others and they do not need to follow the grammar or vocabulary of the other States. No one will want to have a common grammar because that would be a "brazilicide". The economic differences of the richer States will be a major factor to look down on the Creoles spoken by other poorer States. For everybody to communicate they will have to use good standard Portuguese, but that will be used only by the elite, just like it happens today, because no one will be able to understand or speak so many Creoles. In the end Brazil will be divided in many new small countries because no one will admit that they share a culture and a language. For this they will point out all the differences in the language and culture and will totally ignore what they have in common. Each country will have the name of the language it speaks.
''Each state in Brazil will have its own Creole as they already have many regional differences in vocabulary, accent etc. ''
Not true. Spoken Brazilian Portuguese is standardized. Try Gramática de Português falado. Unicamp Editora. 10000 hours of recorded material, only university educated people interviewed. It revealed that most things that are common in Portugal, like clits o/a or tendency to enclisis are not used at all in speech of educated Brazilians. That is, even superior educated Brazilians speak like middle class people in Brazilian soap operas. One cannot say that only poor people say VI ELE instead of VI-O. VI-O and O VI became obsolete in speech. Sooner or later VI ELE will be accepted in formal writing as well. It even entered colloquial (children) and semiformal (female magazins, comic books) publications.
Kendra
««Each state in Brazil will have its own Creole as they already have many regional differences in vocabulary, accent etc. '' Not true. Spoken Brazilian Portuguese is standardized.»» Standardized is what comes in the Portuguese language dictionary published in Brazil. Try the "Dicionário de Cearês", de Marcus Gadelha (Multigraf Editora Ltda) and then tell me if there are no regional differences in Brasil. ««That is, even superior educated Brazilians speak like middle class people in Brazilian soap operas. »» You are saying a soap opera presents an educated language? Superior educated Brazilians can master good standard Portuguese and are also able to master street language without any problem. That is why they pay more to go to a good school. A language can be defined as "many languages inside a language" and you have to learn the different regional vocabularies if you want to be understood by everybody that speaks your language. That is why regional dictionaries exist. Kenda the post was about what could happen "at the same time with intergalactic voyages. LOL". Which means it is very hard to guess what may happen in the future. You can only guess.
''You are saying a soap opera presents an educated language?''
Most antimoon.com chatters agreed that ''THERE IS NO SUCH THING LIKE EDUCATED LANGUAGE'' It seems you've missed our earlier discussions. Go try reading some linguistic books. Or prior to that, check the definition of this word [linguistics] in your Webster dictionary. gotta go now, hon |