Alba means dawn - it's the same in Italian (and also Portuguese I believe). French also has "aube", beside "aurore" but I do not know how much it is used.
I wonder if the Latin and Germanic languages ever mated
"french language is the only Romance
language which do not use a Latin origin for colours : blanc (white), bleu (blue), gris (grey), brun (brown), all have a Germanic origin."*
really ?
Fr:Blanc/Es:Blanco/It:Bianco
Fr:Bleu/Es:Azul/It:Blu
Fr:Gris/Es:gris/It:grigio
language which do not use a Latin origin for colours : blanc (white), bleu (blue), gris (grey), brun (brown), all have a Germanic origin."*
really ?
Fr:Blanc/Es:Blanco/It:Bianco
Fr:Bleu/Es:Azul/It:Blu
Fr:Gris/Es:gris/It:grigio
<<<Does anybody know if an example exists of any contemporary or historical form of a Latin/Germanic hybrid? A sort of pidgin, perhaps?... >>>
I have read that the Romance languages as well as English are some kind of a Latin/Germanic hybrid. This hybridization is not so visible if you look only at vocabulary, it is more in the grammar (drastic simplification, loss of synthetic character and inflection), syntax, pronunciation etc. that these "hybrids" differ from classical Latin and German.
I have read that the Romance languages as well as English are some kind of a Latin/Germanic hybrid. This hybridization is not so visible if you look only at vocabulary, it is more in the grammar (drastic simplification, loss of synthetic character and inflection), syntax, pronunciation etc. that these "hybrids" differ from classical Latin and German.
The Spanish word "azul" (blue in English) is not a germanic word but comes from Sanscrit . Italian has a related word, "azzurro", but it means light blue and hence denotes a different tone of blue than Azul. In Spanish they say "azul celeste" which is equivalent to azurro.
Old Spanish had *blavo meaning blue from the same germanic origin; Italian has bruno from germanic *brun;
It is true--the Romance languages have strong germanic influences in grammar (syntax, modal verb usage [i.e. Lat. 'habere' as a helping verb], contruction of the perfect tense and possibly the future tense via early germanic influences on V.Lat through substantial numbers of germanic mercenaries in the Roman army speaking/modifying the Latin language...
however, in vocabulary, Romance languages are basically Latinic
It is true--the Romance languages have strong germanic influences in grammar (syntax, modal verb usage [i.e. Lat. 'habere' as a helping verb], contruction of the perfect tense and possibly the future tense via early germanic influences on V.Lat through substantial numbers of germanic mercenaries in the Roman army speaking/modifying the Latin language...
however, in vocabulary, Romance languages are basically Latinic
romance languages (besides french) do not have germanic influences in all those things that you say, who are you trying to lie to?
just to clarify, Latin never used 'habere as a helping verb in the way French, Spanish, Portuguese, etc do [cf. Fr "j'ai fini" -- 'I have finished']...the very use of 'habere rather than the more usual Latin verb 'tenere is itself the result of sounding so close to the germanic *habban [this usage was introduced by the germanic invaders who picked up the V.Lat language and made germanic contributions to it. Prior to that time, use of 'habere in this fashion did not exist in P.Romance.]
...although attested to derive from Latin 'habere, one could argue that in many instances, the modern Romance derivatives of 'habere (avoir, haber, etc) are partially from Latin 'habere; partially from germanic *habban...
That would be a type of hybridization right?
...although attested to derive from Latin 'habere, one could argue that in many instances, the modern Romance derivatives of 'habere (avoir, haber, etc) are partially from Latin 'habere; partially from germanic *habban...
That would be a type of hybridization right?
<<romance languages (besides french) do not have germanic influences in all those things that you say, who are you trying to lie to? >>
It's not a lie...anyone who has made a study of Latin vs Romance can attest that W. Romance grammar is near identical to that of germanic languages like German and Dutch, not like that of Latin (eg. SOV vs SVO to name one). This is nothing new. At the least, the germanic languages helped to speed up the transformation of Latin to Romance, if not directing it.
Yes, French has the greatest influence from germanic (vocabulary), but all western romance languages do in their grammar. This is blurred by the fact that W.Romance languages share many of these influences, so they are easily mistaken to have been derived from Latin (comparing influence to influence). That is just not the case however.
It's not a lie...anyone who has made a study of Latin vs Romance can attest that W. Romance grammar is near identical to that of germanic languages like German and Dutch, not like that of Latin (eg. SOV vs SVO to name one). This is nothing new. At the least, the germanic languages helped to speed up the transformation of Latin to Romance, if not directing it.
Yes, French has the greatest influence from germanic (vocabulary), but all western romance languages do in their grammar. This is blurred by the fact that W.Romance languages share many of these influences, so they are easily mistaken to have been derived from Latin (comparing influence to influence). That is just not the case however.
« Guest » : « It's not a lie...anyone who has made a study of Latin vs Romance can attest that W. Romance grammar is near identical to that of germanic languages like German and Dutch, not like that of Latin (eg. SOV vs SVO to name one). This is nothing new. At the least, the germanic languages helped to speed up the transformation of Latin to Romance, if not directing it. »
Pures fadaises ! Si un trait grammatical est présent à la fois dans les langues germaniques et les langues romanes, c'est peut-être que ce trait est à chercher en aval. Les langues romanes ont des noms et des verbes. Ça ne veut pas dire qu'elles ont emprunté ces catégories grammaticales aux langues germaniques !...
D'autre part, un auteur conteste que les langues romanes soient issues du latin. Voir « Le français ne vient pas du latin (Essai sur une aberration linguistique) » d'Yves Cortez. L'auteur fait descendre les langues romanes du roman (qu'il appelle « italien ancien »), une langue "cousine" du latin.
« Guest » : « Yes, French has the greatest influence from germanic (vocabulary) (...) ».
Ça demande à être prouvé.
Pures fadaises ! Si un trait grammatical est présent à la fois dans les langues germaniques et les langues romanes, c'est peut-être que ce trait est à chercher en aval. Les langues romanes ont des noms et des verbes. Ça ne veut pas dire qu'elles ont emprunté ces catégories grammaticales aux langues germaniques !...
D'autre part, un auteur conteste que les langues romanes soient issues du latin. Voir « Le français ne vient pas du latin (Essai sur une aberration linguistique) » d'Yves Cortez. L'auteur fait descendre les langues romanes du roman (qu'il appelle « italien ancien »), une langue "cousine" du latin.
« Guest » : « Yes, French has the greatest influence from germanic (vocabulary) (...) ».
Ça demande à être prouvé.
<<<...anyone who has made a study of Latin vs Romance can attest that W. Romance grammar is near identical to that of germanic languages like German and Dutch, not like that of Latin (eg. SOV vs SVO to name one). This is nothing new. At the least, the germanic languages helped to speed up the transformation of Latin to Romance, if not directing it.
Yes, French has the greatest influence from germanic (vocabulary), but all western romance languages do in their grammar. This is blurred by the fact that W.Romance languages share many of these influences, so they are easily mistaken to have been derived from Latin (comparing influence to influence). That is just not the case however. >>>
That is a short and exact description of the true facts, thank you!
Alas, there is obviously still a big influence of 19th century nationalizm present in the debate that still tries to make believe that Romance languages are immaculate descendants of classical or at least vernacular Latin. It is a little bit like the Japanese trying to negate any connection of their ancestry and culture with the People of Korea. But nationalizm is never a good basis for linguistic science and history!
Yes, French has the greatest influence from germanic (vocabulary), but all western romance languages do in their grammar. This is blurred by the fact that W.Romance languages share many of these influences, so they are easily mistaken to have been derived from Latin (comparing influence to influence). That is just not the case however. >>>
That is a short and exact description of the true facts, thank you!
Alas, there is obviously still a big influence of 19th century nationalizm present in the debate that still tries to make believe that Romance languages are immaculate descendants of classical or at least vernacular Latin. It is a little bit like the Japanese trying to negate any connection of their ancestry and culture with the People of Korea. But nationalizm is never a good basis for linguistic science and history!
"It's not a lie...anyone who has made a study of Latin vs Romance can attest that W. Romance grammar is near identical to that of germanic languages like German and Dutch, not like that of Latin (eg. SOV vs SVO to name one)"
In Spanish the SVO structure is not the only one, in this aspect, it is less rigid than English. For example :
Yo le maté -------> you have a S + O + V structure
Se lo di -------> (S) + IO + DO + V
Even there are some weird redundancies -------> Le compré un libró a él: (S) + IO + V + DO + IO.
And these ones are not exceptions but are quite frequent. As a general rule, when the objects are pronouns, they precede the verb following the Latin fashion. Perhaps there are germanic influences here and there in Spanish but they are merely superficial, just like English was superficially influenced by Latin and its derived languages. I can't tell a single language which is a true hybrid of two quite different ones, excluding those who are artificial like Esperanto. My hyphotesis is that the DNA of a language hardly changes no matter how many loanwords it has (even if it was the 100% of its current vocabulary)
In Spanish the SVO structure is not the only one, in this aspect, it is less rigid than English. For example :
Yo le maté -------> you have a S + O + V structure
Se lo di -------> (S) + IO + DO + V
Even there are some weird redundancies -------> Le compré un libró a él: (S) + IO + V + DO + IO.
And these ones are not exceptions but are quite frequent. As a general rule, when the objects are pronouns, they precede the verb following the Latin fashion. Perhaps there are germanic influences here and there in Spanish but they are merely superficial, just like English was superficially influenced by Latin and its derived languages. I can't tell a single language which is a true hybrid of two quite different ones, excluding those who are artificial like Esperanto. My hyphotesis is that the DNA of a language hardly changes no matter how many loanwords it has (even if it was the 100% of its current vocabulary)
Does anybody know if an example exists of any contemporary or historical form of a Latin/Germanic hybrid? A sort of pidgin, perhaps?...
English
English
"french language is the only Romance
language which do not use a Latin origin for colours : blanc (white), bleu (blue), gris (grey), brun (brown), all have a Germanic origin.
"
Italian has the same words for these colours excepting brown .
No it exists: bruno
language which do not use a Latin origin for colours : blanc (white), bleu (blue), gris (grey), brun (brown), all have a Germanic origin.
"
Italian has the same words for these colours excepting brown .
No it exists: bruno
Latin/Germanic hybrid : « Alas, there is obviously still a big influence of 19th century nationalizm present in the debate that still tries to make believe that Romance languages are immaculate descendants of classical or at least vernacular Latin. It is a little bit like the Japanese trying to negate any connection of their ancestry and culture with the People of Korea. But nationalizm is never a good basis for linguistic science and history! »
Et l'absence d'argument non plus !...
Et l'absence d'argument non plus !...
<<<...anyone who has made a study of Latin vs Romance can attest that W. Romance grammar is near identical to that of germanic languages like German and Dutch, not like that of Latin (eg. SOV vs SVO to name one). This is nothing new.>>>
can you tell us more details and/or examples on your statement that Romance grammar is near identical to that of germanic languages?
can you tell us more details and/or examples on your statement that Romance grammar is near identical to that of germanic languages?