I wonder if the Latin and Germanic languages ever mated

Louis   Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:15 am GMT
<<On the other hand the Suebi who arrived to Gallaecia (north-western corner of Spain) and northern Portugal where 5000 people. It is impossible that such low amount of people leaved a great impact on the language of a much bigger population.>>

This argument is based of assumptions, nobody (not even approximatively) knows
1) the number of Germanic invaders, neither
2) the number of settlers following the conquering army neither
3) the different growth number of the following generations depending 4) on factors like birth rate and chances of survival nor
4) the number of original inhabitants, nor
5) the degree of mixing between Germanics and original inhabitants.

By the way: it is not very flattering for us to say that all the millions of original inhabitants of Western Europe and northern Africa could be conquered and dominated by a few small Germanic armies - those German must have been very very superior!?
Adolfo   Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:01 am GMT
Nobody knows the exact number of Suebi migrants, but that they were numerically very inferior to the native population is widely accepted thanks to DNA analysis amog many other proofs. Some suggest that they were nearly 5000 people. If this is an assumption let alone the theory of Portuguese as a language heavily influenced by the Suebi! At that period, Spain had an aproximmated population of 5 millions of inhabitants. Compare that to 5000 suebi and 200 000 visigoths. At any case, Spanish would had been the most influenced iberic language by the germanic peoples, since there was a considerable settlement of goths in the provinces of Madrid, Segovia and Burgos since they had the permission of the Roman Empire.
I do not know if it is flattering or not, but the fact is that germanic peoples in the Iberian Peninsula were at most 1% of population. It was not very difficult for them to conquer Spain since the Roman authority was weak at that time and given that they were a warrior caste used to fight agains the hunes and against other germanic tribes. They simply were at the right place at the right time.
Guest   Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:52 am GMT
"I do not know if it is flattering or not, but the fact is that germanic peoples in the Iberian Peninsula were at most 1% of population."

You are making up numbers. The genetic analysis of current population in Spain, with Spanish parents, shows that around 12% have an Y chromosome from Germanic ancestors. Since you probably don't know, let me explain that you inherit your Y chromosome directly from your parent and unless is has mutation it's an identical copy.

If you travel in the North, Castile, Leon and Galicia you could see those germanic chromosomes in the street.
Adolfo   Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:09 pm GMT
"Since you probably don't know, let me explain that you inherit your Y chromosome directly from your parent and unless is has mutation it's an identical copy. "

Well, I did know that but I do not remember it now. I studied it a long time ago. Let me guess: the Y chromosome is inherited from males, isn't? That would explain that there were not massive migrations of Germanic peoples to Spain, but only warriors looking for making a fortune in the rich lands of the Western Roman Empire. When there is a big migration, males take their wives and children, but that was not the case of the Goths. Let me repeat to you, the studies I 've seen talk about 5000 suebi and 200 000 goths, that is not a big number enough to make a big impact on the language of the conquered people, let alone the fact that the Goths already spoke Latin when they arrived to Spain.
I know fairly well Spain, and people in Spain look identical, mo matter yo go to the South , to the North, West or East. That some have blue eyes and blond hair does not mean they are descendants of Germanic people. Recently I watched on TV a town in Valencia where there is a blond haired population above the Spanish average, and scientists concluded that it was dued to a spontaneous mutation. In the case of Galicia, it is impossible that they are largely descendants of the Suebi because they were only 5000 people! . On the other hand, the goths, which were much more than 5000, settled in the center of Spain and made Toledo the capital of their kingdom. But their power had not correlation with their numerical importance, they were only a small caste of warriors.
Guest   Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:39 pm GMT
An example of a Germanic invasion by a small group of people is England. Estimations of number of people in this invasion are similar for both England and Spain and it happened around the same time. The result is that the language in England did change and in Spain did not. So a small group of people can change the language. England is a typical example, for example the celts did change the language there too, despite being a small minority. Apparently theres is very little Celtic blood - whatever that means - in the British Islands, even in Ireland and Scotland. So your statement about "... that is not a big number enough to make a big impact on the language of the conquered people" seems to be wrong in England.

My point is that we should not underestimate the influence of the Germanic tribes had on the language of the Iberian peninsula. Of course we need to remember that - apparently - the Visigoths probably did speak some sort of romance language when they showed up in the peninsula. Of course most of these issues are open issues.

As for blond hair... let me remind you that the Y chromosome does not determine you hair color or eye color at all. Even in Germany dark hair is the predominant type and in most of Europe the typical eye color is hazel not blue.

Again I don't know where you get all those estimates. In Galicia if we just look at the toponyms, between 2% and 5% (depending on who you ask) are Germanic toponyms. After 1500 years.
OïL   Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:38 pm GMT
"people in Spain look identical, mo matter yo go to the South , to the North, West or East"

— This is strikingly true. That was an effect of the Reconquista and of the ethnical cleansing that followed (you might or not criticize it but otherwise we wouldn't be speaking about Portugal, Spain, Catalonia...).

Another consequence is that Iberian language zones (unlike Germany, France, Italy) are not ranged from the South to the North but from the West to the East, i.e. a Galician-Portuguese stripe in the West, a Catalan-Valencian stripe in the East, and a large Castillan stripe in the middle, each domain being highly homogeneous.

— About hypothetical influence of Germanic tribes on Iberian languages: close to zero.
guest   Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:32 pm GMT
<<— About hypothetical influence of Germanic tribes on Iberian languages: close to zero. >>

I agree. An earlier post alluded to a Basque and Celtic influence on Spanish/Portuguese, and I agree there too that that was more impacting (Castillian 'v'; 'ser' vs 'estar', etc). What the Suebi and Visgoths added was not as far-reaching, but still significant...However, this does not diminish the germanic contribution to Spanish/Portuguese...the germanic contribution was already present in proto-romance and that's where the bulk of it stems from.

Then, as other languages such as French took centerstage, germanic elements came in through indirect contact with Frankish via French.
guest   Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:36 pm GMT
<<"people in Spain look identical, mo matter yo go to the South , to the North, West or East"

— This is strikingly true. That was an effect of the Reconquista and of the ethnical cleansing that followed (you might or not criticize it but otherwise we wouldn't be speaking about Portugal, Spain, Catalonia...). >>

I kinda see a difference from the south (Andalusia) vs the Northeast...where people in the south appear swarthier, stockier and are often more hirsute than those in the north-east, which look fair...

am I imagining something here...?
Adolfo   Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:57 pm GMT
How come a small amount of germanic people migrated to the British Isles?
Ok, I do not know the History of Great Britain and Ireland very well but I think that it is maybe true for the West of Britain, but not for the East. What about zones like Yorkshire? They were heavily anglosaxonized and the original population erased from the map. It sounds logical that more people migrated from the North of Germany and Denmark to the British Islands than to Spain, since the formers are much more nearer to the lands originally inhabited by the Germanic tribes .
Guest   Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:22 pm GMT
Keep in mind that not all the Angles, Saxons and Jutes migrated to Britain...the majority stayed behind and their descendants are the inhabitants of modern Friesland, Niedersachsen, Holstein-Schleswig, etc.

In the event of the migration of the Suebi, Vandals, etc. the majority of them relocated, correct?
Guest   Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:43 pm GMT
"What about zones like Yorkshire? They were heavily anglosaxonized and the original population erased from the map."

You are totally wrong about the last part of your sentence. The original population, going back 10.000 years still makes up from 53% to 97% of the gene pool (depending on the area of the British Islands), and recent studies stated that "the Anglo-saxon blood in the British Islands are no more than 10% of the current gene pool.

Read any study by Oppenheimer before you continue with your prejudices:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Oppenheimer
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Louis   Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:44 am GMT
<<<
...and recent studies stated that "the Anglo-saxon blood in the British Islands are no more than 10% of the current gene pool. >>>

Here again a writer trying to minimize the settlement of Germanic population during the migration period and to maximize the endurance of original population. French state that only 2% of Frenchmen are of Germanic ancestry, Adolfo speaks of a total of only 5000 Suebi in Spain and now even England is not Anglo-saxon anymore - why this reflexes? Is it a shame to be of Anglo-saxon blood today? It is not by calling the British royal dynasty Winsor instead of Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha that the Queen gets Celtic ;-)
guest   Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:09 pm GMT
<<Here again a writer trying to minimize the settlement of Germanic population during the migration period and to maximize the endurance of original population. French state that only 2% of Frenchmen are of Germanic ancestry, Adolfo speaks of a total of only 5000 Suebi in Spain and now even England is not Anglo-saxon anymore - why this reflexes? Is it a shame to be of Anglo-saxon blood today? It is not by calling the British royal dynasty Winsor instead of Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha that the Queen gets Celtic ;-) >>

lol, excellent. Bravo!

It's crap like this that makes you wonder if what 'they' are telling us is even true at all.