forum franco-hispanique / foro hispano-frances

El C   Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:55 pm GMT
The question is not to make suffer the murderer, if we are humans, we can't do that. Even he has made ugly things. The most important is to not let that man free because he is dangerous.

If you want him to suffer, which is a feeling i understand (especially if you are a member of the victim's familly) you do the same thing, there is no alternative.

I think these kind of people have a problem in their mind. To punish them is not the solution, we must put them in jail only because they are dangerous and why not to find why they became like that. Finding their mental disease must be the target, punishment as shown on history did not really work.
bernard   Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:13 am GMT
" I agree that addressing people in English in a non-English-speaking country is sometimes impolite. People should at least learn enough of the language to ask if the other person speaks English. Also in some expensive tourist hotels and stores that sell to tourists, the English-speaking tourists may believe that it's the responsibility of the businesses to provide persons who can speak their language. "


Hello Gjones,

You try to excuse your compatriots, I can understand this attitude.
But let's be realistic, I live in Paris, a city where a huge number of American tourists always act very rudely towards us in our own country. The behaviour we are talking about is not restricted to some insignificant percent but actually 90% of anglo-saxon visitors act as if they had landed in an overseas American or British state. I'm sorry but I call that cultural colonialism.
It is time for Anglo-americans to understand that the anti-anglo-saxon fellings they experiment in most of the world is mostly due to their behaviour (with exeption of the fanatic terrorists who hate everyone who isn't a religous fanatic). And this rude and very unrespecful behaviour helps fanatic extremists to gain popularity.. This is sad.


" I wouldn't say that this rudeness has to do with colonialism, though, just the desire to be understood quickly. "

Do I would speak to people in french in New-York to be understood quiker ?! Why do anglo-saxon act that way so ? I'll tell you : because they think that everyone should be under their cultural and linguitic domination and expect us to speak their language !! This is the definition of colonialism !
I the tourists would want to be understood quikly they'd spoke in the language of the country where they are and not their language !
The problem with anglo-saxons is that they seem to have been educated in the idea that they have the divine mission to rule the world and that english is the "shoosen" international language, and they think that everybody speak it. - this may be true for international finance and some other businesses - But it is not the case for the everyday life. For us english is as much a foreign language than french is for united-statians.
It is sad that most Anglophone people seem to be blind of their own colonialism - it would be nice for them to open their eyes and be more respecfull if they want to be respected - using force and rudeness will never be the solution.. I tell this as a friend advice, I always tell frankly the same thing to my American friends (yes, we like frankess, we always speak this way with our friends ( this is a big difference with Anglo mentality, and somtimes a source of misunderstandings, but when we don't agree we shout it) this is why we make a revolution every week)


" English-speaking tourists may believe that it's the responsibility of the businesses to provide persons who can speak their language "

Do they do it in their own country ? If I expect someone who speak my language in an American restaurant I can wait a thousand of years !
Travis   Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:16 am GMT
>>Hello Gjones,

You try to excuse your compatriots, I can understand this attitude.
But let's be realistic, I live in Paris, a city where a huge number of American tourists always act very rudely towards us in our own country. The behaviour we are talking about is not restricted to some insignificant percent but actually 90% of anglo-saxon visitors act as if they had landed in an overseas American or British state.<<

In what fashion per se? If you are referring to their use of English, you first must remember that most Americans are English-monolingual for starters, and that even if they *do* speak some language other than English, that language may very well be something other than French, such as Spanish or German (which I remember, when I was in middle and high school, as both being more popular in school than French).

>>I'm sorry but I call that cultural colonialism.
It is time for Anglo-americans to understand that the anti-anglo-saxon fellings they experiment in most of the world is mostly due to their behaviour (with exeption of the fanatic terrorists who hate everyone who isn't a religous fanatic). And this rude and very unrespecful behaviour helps fanatic extremists to gain popularity.. This is sad.<<

Using one's own native language in other countries, especially when one probably is not fluent in anything *but* such, is "cultural colonialism"?

>>" I wouldn't say that this rudeness has to do with colonialism, though, just the desire to be understood quickly. "

Do I would speak to people in french in New-York to be understood quiker ?! Why do anglo-saxon act that way so ? I'll tell you : because they think that everyone should be under their cultural and linguitic domination and expect us to speak their language !! This is the definition of colonialism !
I the tourists would want to be understood quikly they'd spoke in the language of the country where they are and not their language !<<

This has the little problem that it requires actually being able to speak anything other than English, and even then, such would only be applicable to a limited set of cases; for instance, in my case, my non-native German would be no more applicable in, say, Paris than my native English already would be.

>>The problem with anglo-saxons is that they seem to have been educated in the idea that they have the divine mission to rule the world and that english is the "shoosen" international language, and they think that everybody speak it. - this may be true for international finance and some other businesses - But it is not the case for the everyday life.<<

Actually, things are a little more mundane than that. Such is simply that most Americans find little use in knowing anything other than English, considering that such is overwhelmingly dominant across the whole of English-speaking North American, an area at least probably larger than western and central Europe combined; if they do find anything worthwhile to learn other than it, it is usually Spanish, and even if they do try to seriously learn anything other than Spanish, it is unlikely that they will run into that many people to actually speak with within the US. In my own case, I've got a good amount of practice with my German, but practically all of that has been over the Internet, either as chatting in IRC or in cases in forums (mein gesprochenes Deutsch ist leider etwas beschissen).

>>For us english is as much a foreign language than french is for united-statians.
It is sad that most Anglophone people seem to be blind of their own colonialism - it would be nice for them to open their eyes and be more respecfull if they want to be respected - using force and rudeness will never be the solution.. I tell this as a friend advice, I always tell frankly the same thing to my American friends (yes, we like frankess, we always speak this way with our friends ( this is a big difference with Anglo mentality, and somtimes a source of misunderstandings, but when we don't agree we shout it) this is why we make a revolution every week)<<

So you expect others from the US to just automatically know things other than English, even though they're from a country that is as a whole very English-monolingual? You must remember that the US is not like western Europe, where one can easily with a few hours of travel find oneself in an area that speaks a completely different language than that which one is from. And if they do at all know something other than English, you expect them to necessarily know *your* language? Just because someone has decided to actually take seriously studying a foreign language does not mean that said language will be French, or any Romance language for that matter.

>>" English-speaking tourists may believe that it's the responsibility of the businesses to provide persons who can speak their language "

Do they do it in their own country ? If I expect someone who speak my language in an American restaurant I can wait a thousand of years !<<

Don't expect anyone within the US who is under the age of 65 or so who is not either an immigrant or a first generation native to fluently speak *anything* but English, period; well, of course such individuals exist, but those are most definitely the exception rather than the rule. And if they do speak something than English, it is by far most likely Spanish.
Aldebarán   Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:59 am GMT
Travis :

I know I said I will quit English but this time in order to Bernards and others understand and because this post it's not only directed to you or Sander I will write this post not in Spanish or German but in English, besides if I write this in Spanish you will not understand a word, but French speaking fellows will understand anyway.

In what fashion per se? If you are referring to their use of English, you first must remember that most Americans are English-monolingual for starters, and that even if they *do* speak some language other than English, that language may very well be something other than French, such as Spanish or German (which I remember, when I was in middle and high school, as both being more popular in school than French). >


I don't think the fact that most United Statians are monolinguals is an excuse to forget the fact that English is not the only language in the world.
This would be an excuse for covering their ignorance. (Not all the United Statians are monoliguals as we can see such as Gjones).
If you are in a foreign country I think for manners and decency you should try speak in their native tongue. If I am in the USA I will not expect to speak in Spanish to the United Statians in the same way when they are in Mexico I will not expect to speak to them in English to me.


Using one's own native language in other countries, especially when one probably is not fluent in anything *but* such, is "cultural colonialism"? >

If you do that to bother the native speakers yes, I meet some "gringos" (US people) who were able to speak spanish without a problem but they wanted force us to speak in English you asked about something in Spanish and they answered in English they were able to understood perfectly the question but in order to bother us they refuse to speak in Spanish in our own homeland Mexico. (Not all I must say, but yes there are many examples of this kind of behavior)


Actually, things are a little more mundane than that. Such is simply that most Americans find little use in knowing anything other than English, considering that such is overwhelmingly dominant across the whole of English-speaking North American, an area at least probably larger than western and central Europe combined; if they do find anything worthwhile to learn other than it, it is usually Spanish, and even if they do try to seriously learn anything other than Spanish, it is unlikely that they will run into that many people to actually speak with within the US. In my own case, I've got a good amount of practice with my German, but practically all of that has been over the Internet, either as chatting in IRC or in cases in forums (mein gesprochenes Deutsch ist leider etwas beschissen). >

If they are stayin in the USA yes, but if they are traveling to Mexico they must speak in Spanish to the people the same if they are traveling to Québec the "gringos" must speak in French to the people. (Both regions in North America). Same goes for those who travel to other countries.

I will not visit Russia if I don't speak a bloody word of Russian.
I don't want to get lost, or be unable to communicate.

So you expect others from the US to just automatically know things other than English, even though they're from a country that is as a whole very English-monolingual? You must remember that the US is not like western Europe, where one can easily with a few hours of travel find oneself in an area that speaks a completely different language than that which one is from. And if they do at all know something other than English, you expect them to necessarily know *your* language? Just because someone has decided to actually take seriously studying a foreign language does not mean that said language will be French, or any Romance language for that matter. >

Well as I said if they will remain within the US borders they don't have the obligation if they don't want to learn another language. But if they travel overseas and pretend that everyone speak in English to them that will show only their great ignorance and arrogance.


Don't expect anyone within the US who is under the age of 65 or so who is not either an immigrant or a first generation native to fluently speak *anything* but English, period; well, of course such individuals exist, but those are most definitely the exception rather than the rule. And if they do speak something than English, it is by far most likely Spanish. >

I repeat not in the US within their country they don't have any obligation to speak any foreign language but yes they have the obligation for manners and decency to try to speak the tongue of their country their are visiting at least some words or try to make the effort.
Sigma   Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:04 am GMT
Creo que debemos volver a escribir en este post en Español o en Francés.

¿Dónde estará metido greg?
Aldebarán   Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:16 am GMT
Estoy de acuerdo Sigma.

No soy racista, pero me niego a perder mi identidad, mi cultura y mi lengua a manos de la cultura Anglo-Sajona, no voy a convertirme en un mala copia de los Anglo-parlantes solo para ser aceptado en su mundo colonialista. Es triste ver como algunos nórdicos escandinavos, suecos, noruegos, etc se han convetido en malos clones de las personas Anglo parlantes aceptando el idioma Ingles y su cultura con todos los beneficios que esto ocasiona, pero renunciando a su propia cultura Nórdica, a su idioma, a sus costumbres.

Es muy triste ver ejemplos así.
Aunque respto a los Anglo Sajones como seres humanos, no aceptaré la imposición de una cultura que me diga como vivir, que comer e incluso como morir.

Y admiro mucho a las personas francesas por su valentia de negarse a aceptar este imperialismo cultural y por tener las agallas de decirlo abiertamente, los franceses son un ejemplo a seguir dentro de la familia latina.

Viva Francia
Vive La France.
Viva La Latinidad.
Travis   Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:42 am GMT
>>Travis :

I know I said I will quit English but this time in order to Bernards and others understand and because this post it's not only directed to you or Sander I will write this post not in Spanish or German but in English, besides if I write this in Spanish you will not understand a word, but French speaking fellows will understand anyway.<<

And on that note, I am writing in here in English rather than German simply because it's easier for me to write in English than in German, and also it is likely true that more people here will understand English rather than German, as much as one might say that such is going along with linguistic imperialism or whatever, as such is simply a practical consideration.

>>I don't think the fact that most United Statians are monolinguals is an excuse to forget the fact that English is not the only language in the world.
This would be an excuse for covering their ignorance. (Not all the United Statians are monoliguals as we can see such as Gjones).
If you are in a foreign country I think for manners and decency you should try speak in their native tongue. If I am in the USA I will not expect to speak in Spanish to the United Statians in the same way when they are in Mexico I will not expect to speak to them in English to me.<<

Again, that is if one can speak the native language in the area in question; one cannot simply learn a language on the spot, phrasebooks for tourists aside, so one cannot necessarily expect someone to just be able to automatically speak the language in question on the spot.

>>If you do that to bother the native speakers yes, I meet some "gringos" (US people) who were able to speak spanish without a problem but they wanted force us to speak in English you asked about something in Spanish and they answered in English they were able to understood perfectly the question but in order to bother us they refuse to speak in Spanish in our own homeland Mexico. (Not all I must say, but yes there are many examples of this kind of behavior)<<

Well, you might have run into some individuals here like such, yes, but one thing one must remember is that just because one may speak a language somewhat does not mean that one is necessarily fluent and that one is equally or more comfortable speaking in the other language in question than their own native language. If I were in, say, Germany, I might get by for a while with respect to general basic questions and comments and like in German, but I would probably myself have to switch back to English in more complex discussions, not due to trying to force the other individual to speak English, but rather simply because my spoken German is not good enough for such to be easy at all for me in such. Also, honestly, it is likely that many Germans probably have English which is better that my own German, all things considered.

>>If they are stayin in the USA yes, but if they are traveling to Mexico they must speak in Spanish to the people the same if they are traveling to Québec the "gringos" must speak in French to the people. (Both regions in North America). Same goes for those who travel to other countries.<<

Of course, just because someone is travelling to a country to a relatively short period of time will mean that they will necessarily speak anything besides basic phrases in the language that is most widely spread there; learning another language is not something that one can do quickly, so hence trying to actually *really* learn a given language just for travelling to a place for a short period of time is not necessarily easily feasible.

>>I will not visit Russia if I don't speak a bloody word of Russian.
I don't want to get lost, or be unable to communicate.<<

But sometimes not visiting a certain place is not an option simply because one doesn't know the language natively spoken there, and of course, tourist phrasebooks won't serve all one's needs. Hence, trying to find individuals there that at least speak *some* language one already speaks is what one will have to do, as much as such may be "language imperialism".

>>Well as I said if they will remain within the US borders they don't have the obligation if they don't want to learn another language. But if they travel overseas and pretend that everyone speak in English to them that will show only their great ignorance and arrogance.<<

One cannot assume that everyone knows every other language, and that they are "ignorant" if they don't happen to speak whatever language one oneself speaks, either. Hence why I get very very annoyed when individuals switch discussions *from* English *into* French or Spanish here, and then assume that everyone else should be able to understand French or Spanish too, and call them ignorant if they don't.

>>I repeat not in the US within their country they don't have any obligation to speak any foreign language but yes they have the obligation for manners and decency to try to speak the tongue of their country their are visiting at least some words or try to make the effort.<<

Well, trying if you can is polite, of course, and it is always useful to know how to ask for the nearest bathroom in the native language, but saying that people *must* do so, whether or not they can, at whatever level of fluency may be required, is too much.
Candy   Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:09 am GMT
Several points I wanted to make here.
Firstly, many Americans visiting France are probably not only visiting France, but many other countries too. Do you really expect them to be fluent in French, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese and God knows what else? Of course you can buy phrasebooks and do your best to communicate, but you can't learn to speak 6 languages fluently just because you're visiting Europe for 2 weeks. If you're going to insist that tourists should learn a language fluently just to make a short visit, you'll end up killing most countries' tourism industries.

Secondly, are you sure that all these tourists using English are native speakers? Here in Germany a few months ago, some peole stopped me on the street and asked me for directions, in English. They were Norwegian. Given that they spoke totally fluent English, most Germans might have assumed that they were British. Try to remember that English is a lingua franca, and second-language speakers outnumber native speakers by about 4 to 1. NOT everybody who communicates in English is a native speaker. Is it still "cultural colonialism" if a Norwegian speaks English in Germany or France? I know a lot of Germans who visit France and try to communicate in English because they can't speak French. Cultural colonialism??

Thirdly, given the very high proportion of people who speak English across the EU, in particular young people (I don't have the statistics to hand, but I remember reading that 47% of EU citizens speak English to conversational level) is it really SO unreasonable for tourists to use English?
Sander   Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:19 pm GMT
French:
=>You try to excuse your compatriots, I can understand this attitude.<=

LOL, ironically the French do exactly the same they never speak the language.Just French.
French   Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:07 pm GMT
????????????????????????????????????????

French:
=>You try to excuse your compatriots, I can understand this attitude.<=


Hey Dutchy I didnt write that sentence.
Sander   Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:21 pm GMT
Hey Frenchy screw you.
Gjones2   Wed Aug 31, 2005 5:26 pm GMT
I agree with some of the complaints. Politeness requires that people make an effort to speak the language of the country -- if they have the knowledge to do so. The criticism of Americans who don't speak other languages, though, seems out of proportion to the offense.

I don't doubt that some of them are impolite and show impatience when they have problems being understood, but as Travis points out the main problem is that most Americans just don't know foreign languages -- and for an easy-to-understand reason. They usually don't need them for what they do for most of their lives. If they know a little of one (usually Spanish), that still means that they'll have to depend on English when they visit most of the countries in Europe.

For example, consider a husband and wife who go to Europe one time in their entire lives for a two-week vacation, and otherwise almost never have a need to speak foreign languages. Just how many years of their lives should they dedicate to learning foreign languages?
El C   Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:08 pm GMT
Bernard,

Une rectification.

" the tourists would want to be understood quikly "

If the tourissts want to be understand quikly, so why don't they in anglo-saxon countries. Everyone would be happy, especially me. I won't have to see they face eating Mac Donald and drinking coca in the underground. I have never seen any french asking me something with food in his muth. Only americans are able to do it!
Sander   Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:21 pm GMT
=>Only americans are able to do it! <=

Oh!!! I can do it as well! WOW! That makes me an American!WOW have I become AngloSaxon as well?!
Latino   Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:23 pm GMT
Candy,

The youth generation as you said speak englsih, but when an italian, a spanish or a portuguese come to France or vice versa. We never use english, NO WAY!! We use spanish or we use the DIY latin language!!!

English is only used with nordic people, between latin we don't. It is "inpensable" and would be considered as a shame.

Viva la cultura latina! Viva l'independenza contros los americanos y sus collaboratores.

Los anglo-sajones estan el problemo del mundo pero no es para la eternidad!

VIVA LA FRANCIA

VIVA ESPAÑA

VIVA ITALIA

VIVA EL PORTUGUAL

VIVA LA RUMANIA

VIVA MEXICO

VIVA ARGENTINA

VIVA EL BRAS~IL

VIVA EL PERU

VIVA EL ECUADOR

VIVA EL GUATEMALA

VIVA TODOS QUE ESTAN DE UNA OTRA CULTURA QUE LOS ANGLO-SAJONES!!!!