Relationship between Danish and Dutch

Sander   Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:15 pm GMT
*heard
Travis   Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:39 pm GMT
Sander, so then why do I consistently hear that pronunciation in the songs 10 Miljoen Mensen by Fluitsma and van Tijn and Over de Muur by Klein Orkest? I don't even think I ever hear [Ei] (or something similar) in either song, and the pronunciation of "zijn" as homophonous with "sein" really sticks out in Over de Muur.
Travis   Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:43 pm GMT
Okay, I sometimes hear something like [@I] in Over de Muur, such like in the pronunciation of "bereikt", but most cases seem to have [aI] in it (for instance, "vrijheid" in it sounds all but the same as standard Hochdeutsch "freiheit", the only difference being the [v] rather than [f]).
Travis   Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:48 pm GMT
I also hear something like [3I] or [@I] at times in 10 Miljoen Mensen, in alternation with [aI], but I don't actually hear a diphthong involving [E] as a starting point in it.
Sander   Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:22 pm GMT
I really don't know where you get it from, to me "zijn" and "sein" sound very different.

I've created a sound file:

http://www.orbitfiles.com/download/Nederland/Seinzijn.wav
Sander   Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:24 pm GMT
Sander   Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:25 pm GMT
Okay ... it was the right link ;-)
Arthur   Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:12 am GMT
Sander,

was mijn vraag over de tijwoorden niet reactiewaardig voor je of zal je vanmorgen daar komen met en super gedetailleerde aanwoord over? :-)
HT   Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:44 am GMT
Conversely...

"To be, are, were, being, been", in het Deens/på dansk.

http://www.orbitfiles.com/download/id668654789
Travis   Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:08 am GMT
>>I really don't know where you get it from, to me "zijn" and "sein" sound very different.<<

In your example, the two are clearly different, with "sein" having [aI] and "zijn" having [Ei]. This strongly contrasts with those two songs, where the closest thing to [Ei] for the phoneme marked orthographically by "ij" and "ei" is occasional rising diphthongs with the starting point [{] or possibly [3] (it seems that the starting point in many cases is *slightly* higher than [a] proper), but a starting point of [E] itself never actually shows up. In at least Over de Muur, "zijn" sounds identical to standard Hochdeutsch "sein", unlike your "zijn".
Sander   Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:40 am GMT
>>In your example, the two are clearly different, with "sein" having [aI] and "zijn" having [Ei]. This strongly contrasts with those two songs, where the closest thing to [Ei] for the phoneme marked orthographically by "ij" and "ei" is occasional rising diphthongs with the starting point [{] or possibly [3] (it seems that the starting point in many cases is *slightly* higher than [a] proper), but a starting point of [E] itself never actually shows up. In at least Over de Muur, "zijn" sounds identical to standard Hochdeutsch "sein", unlike your "zijn". <<

Maybe it's something that happens when Dutch is song ... I never heard it and ... well can't explain it either.
Sander   Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:53 am GMT
And now for the beautiful Dutch linguistic terms...
___________________________________________
>>OVTT (Onvoltooid Verleden Toekomende Tijd) <<

Example: "Ik zou lopen" (I was going to walk)
___________________________________________
>>VVTT (Voltooid Verleden Toekomende Tijd)<<

Example: "Ik zou zijn gegaan" (I would have went)
___________________________________________
>>OTT<<

Example "Ik word geslagen" (I'm being beaten)
___________________________________________
>>VTT<<

Example: "Ik ben geslagen" (I was beaten)
___________________________________________
>>Voltooid Toekomend Deelwoord<<

Example: "De man geslagen te hebben" (while having beaten the man)
Arthur   Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:45 pm GMT
Sander,

Is that all?, well your examples express the beauty in its simplicity.
So, OTT, VTT, and Voltooid Toekomend Deelwoord are passive forms.

But why does the text I copied say, that the firs two times don't exist in English? are you using the closest similar way to explain them or do they DO exist in English as the forms you wrote?

And thanks again for the help...
Sander   Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:22 pm GMT
>>But why does the text I copied say, that the firs two times don't exist in English? are you using the closest similar way to explain them or do they DO exist in English as the forms you wrote?
<<

OVTT = something you were/something was going to do (continuous) in the past but of which you speak in the future.

I was going to walk, I'm not sure if English has a name for this tense.

VVTT = something you were/something was going to do (finished) in the past but of which you speak in the future.

I would have went, I'm not sure if English has a name for this tense.
HT   Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:02 pm GMT
"I would have gone (not went)" is conditional perfect.