What makes French Latin?

The true spring of Franks tribe are the people who's living near to Aachen and Hessen in West Germany. Nowadays the small community of Frankish blood people in France is those from Phalsburg, Forbach, Northern Alsatia (Wissemßurg) and the piece of Flanders' land (Nordpeene). The remaining Alsatia is Alemanic and therefore Germanic too.

So the count of all these people makes something as 2,000,000 and I can't see where there is 40% germanic in France. You fuck up with mathematics.

Moreover we can't readily say that Alsatians are french people forasmuch as they were stolen to the united former alemanic area. The same case about flemish community.

Frankrich kand nitt sih we a germanisch's Land anmaße insofern sini welsche Gestesard hann waare.

Elsasser Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:15 pm GMT
<<<...Nowadays the small community of Frankish blood people in France is those from Phalsburg, Forbach, Northern Alsatia (Wissemßurg) and the piece of Flanders' land (Nordpeene).... >>>

Alsatian, I fully understand your view. But I think that it is not logical to call people in France with Frankish/Alemannic "blood" only those peolple who still speak today or have spoken in the near past a Frankish/Alemannic dialect. Frankish and Alemannic dialects do(unfortunately!) decline rapidly in North/Eastern France and are replaced by modern French. But this doesn't make the Frankish or Alemannic "blood" disappear.

The process that Germanic people change their language in contact with the Latin/Romanic world has often and massively happened in the past 2000 years. I think that in 100 years, Alsatians will be exactly as Romanized like the Normans in the Normandy, the Goths in Catalonia (=Goth-land), the Lombards in Lombardia, the Burgundians in Swittzerland and Bourgogne and (this is surely the main block) the Franks in the France.

This long lasting process of acculturation has lead to a Germanization of France, so that
1) French "blood" is to a great part Germanic in the French territories Northern of the Loire and in the Franco-Provencal speaking areas.
2) modern French (= Germano-Latin Creole) language is much nearer to Germanic English than to classical Latin
3) the Culture of Northern and Eastern France is oriented towards the Germanic culture, that means technical, cold, dominant etc.
4) many country villages in North-Eastern France have Germanic origins and names
5) many French consider Germanic names like Mathilde or Robert to be purely French


In that way Alsatians are typical French, their blood is Germanic, their language French. The only difference to other French people is the fact that their acculturation does actually happen today and did not happen in the dark middle ages....

L'analyse de la dernière sortie de Ouest est fort instructive : à défaut d'arguments, il fait feu de tout bois. Cette attitude lui donne l'illusion d'avancer alors qu'il se contente de suivre.

Glissement "linguistique" → génétique :
« (...) But this doesn't make the Frankish or Alemannic "blood" disappear »
« French "blood" is to a great part Germanic (...) »
« In that way Alsatians are typical French, their blood is Germanic (...) ».

Glissement "créolisation linguistique" → créolisation culturelle :
« This long lasting process of acculturation (...) »
« The only difference to other French people is the fact that their acculturation does actually happen today (...) »
Comme je te l'annonçais plus tôt, tu finis par reprendre les arguments quand ils te sont répétés sans cesse.

Mais les erreurs & carences caractéristiques de Ouest subsistent.

Incohérence entre "créolisation germanolatine" & adoption des langues romanes par les germanophones :
« The process that Germanic people change their language in contact with the Latin/Romanic world has often and massively happened in the past 2000 years. ».

Réaffirmation du "postulat" (non démontré) et extrapolation sur une autre "créole germanolatin" :
« modern French (= Germano-Latin Creole) language is much nearer to Germanic English than to classical Latin ».

Et au passage, l'idéologie de la confusion fait discrètement surface : « (...) the dark middle ages ».

Ouest : la confusion et l'imprécision sont bien les deux mammelles qui t'abreuvent d'illusions.

French of northern France aren't from germanic spring besides those I already underlined. Normans wasn't in fact from germanic root save the viking lords who lead the mass romance people of former Neustria. They never had spoken any germanic language. For Burgundy I agree withal they were invaded for the Dark Age unlike Alsatians and Flemishmen.

French blood is build-up with Celtic and Romance roots. The germanic chieftans overlord them until the reign of Bourbons. French is an Italic language among Italian, Spanish, Portugese and Romanian. Asatian is ranked in West Germanic Language like dutch, flemsih, frysian, english, german, saxon...
In that way Alsatians are typical alemanic folk, their blood is Germanic, their language is Upper Germanic and their blood brothers are Swabians and Badeners. Alsatia stand again as a modern Germanic land under romance administration with 900,000 germanic speakers.

" Alsatian, I fully understand your view. But I think that it is not logical to call people in France with Frankish/Alemannic "blood" only those peolple who still speak today or have spoken in the near past a Frankish/Alemannic dialect. Frankish and Alemannic dialects do(unfortunately!) decline rapidly in North/Eastern France and are replaced by modern French. But this doesn't make the Frankish or Alemannic "blood" disappear. "

I'm afraid to read such terms as "allemanic" blood... it reminds us dark periods of European history. "frankish" reffered to an etny, which, as all etnies was defined by its culture. Frankish/germanic cultures has never been the majoritary culture in almost no place of modern France (excpeted narrow regions such as Alsace or flanders). The minoritary "germanic" groups lost their cultures centuries ago - and their late aristocratic decendants (which were romanized since centuries and genetically largely mixed with the rest of the population) lost definitelly the power with the revolution.
If by "frankish/alemanic" blood you mean that in the long list of the peoples that melted in the population to form the french there have been germanic-speaking invadersamong the various celtic, basques, mediterranean peoples, mongols, arabic, and various Europeans...without even mentioning the more recent heavy immigration waves that started in the 18th century... that is not a scoop, it happened in all Europe - what does it make ?


" The process that Germanic people change their language in contact with the Latin/Romanic world has often and massively happened in the past 2000 years. I think that in 100 years, Alsatians will be exactly as Romanized like the Normans in the Normandy"

it is in a large scale already the case. you are not mentioning that in Alsace, after 50 years of being in the french republic, the population largely mixed itself - with french from other regions, with decendants of portugueses, of Italians, of north Africans, etc... Even Alsacians are far to be "pure" descendants of germanic-speaking people.


" the Goths in Catalonia (=Goth-land), the Lombards in Lombardia, the Burgundians in Swittzerland and Bourgogne and (this is surely the main block) the Franks in the France. "

all these lands were name with the name of the leading tribes that created the kingdoms, not because the population would be coming from these tribes. you're deeply confused by the semantic proximity of the words "franc" and "france". their meaning, and to people to which they relates are completly different.



" This long lasting process of acculturation has lead to a Germanization of France"

you make too much a big cake of a "germanization" which was only one imigration wave among much other more important, a wave that have happened 1500 years ago and have not even been able to change the local culture... that have not been able to bring more than some hundreds of words in our vocabulary.



" 1) French "blood" is to a great part Germanic in the French territories Northern of the Loire and in the Franco-Provencal speaking areas. "

Once again, I'would be curious to know in what would consist a "germanic blood", how would you define this concept? is the blood able to speak ?



" 2) modern French (= Germano-Latin Creole) language is much nearer to Germanic English than to classical Latin "

LOL !!!
No comment - I leave Greg do it


" 3) the Culture of Northern and Eastern France is oriented towards the Germanic culture, that means technical, cold, dominant etc. "

there is not such a thing as "a culture of north and eastern France".
despite the fact that those are almost prejudiciable stereotypes of German people (saying that what would defines German culture is to be cold is almost a racist statement... and the german that are warm, for you they haven't a germn culture then ?), I have difficulties to understand the relation with France. You should buy yourself a trip of some weeks from a German to a french familly to be able to speak of what you know.


" 4) many country villages in North-Eastern France have Germanic origins and names"

That's obviously the case in Alsace, which was German 60 years ago only shoudl I recall.
you can find some names of towns with old germanic origins in other places - those names are often so much transformed that there are no clue to guess their germanic etymology... among others which have a celtic or latin etymology.


" 5) many French consider Germanic names like Mathilde or Robert to be purely French "

Yes, of course. The same way "matilda" or "Roberto" are considered as purely Italian by Italians.
And what about the majority of Spaniards who wear names of Germanic origins such as Hernandez, Rodriguez, Suarez, Guzman, Torrez, Lopez, Mendez, Sanchez, etc. ?

À toi le « Guest » français qui parle en anglais : merci de m'avoir fait gagner du temps. Ouest & Elsasser devraient te lire et te relire...

So the French aren't even French: the Frankish people! They're nobodies!

"À toi le « Guest » français qui parle en anglais : merci de m'avoir fait gagner du temps. Ouest & Elsasser devraient te lire et te relire..."

I truly don't think like Ouest who looks for a made-up identity about Frenchmen.
Read me again.

<<<<<you make too much a big cake of a "germanization" which was only one imigration wave among much other more important, a wave that have happened 1500 years ago and have not even been able to change the local culture... that have not been able to bring more than some hundreds of words in our vocabulary. >>>>>

No other imigration wave except the Roman invasion was nearly as important for French history.

You say that the Germanic invasions had "not even been able to change the local culture"? Please be aware that after the invasions, the Gallo-Roman culture was almost completely replaced by the more robust rural and military Germanic culture. No Aquaeducts, no villae rusticae, no Roman viae, no Roman laws, no Roman language, no decadence, no corruption, no slavery etc. anymore - instead of this military power (enough to dominate Western Europe and even purely Germanic peoples like the Saxon, Allemans, Goths, Lombards), new methods of agriculture with higher efficiency, high (Germanic) population growth rate, lower mortality because of a more rural and less town-centred way of living, a new language (Romanic = Germano-Latin) - this I would call quite a change of local culture!

<<that have not been able to bring more than some hundreds of words in our vocabulary.>>
Germanic invasions and long lasting language contact brought to the local Latin also big changes in pronunciation and grammar. Please compare Latin grammar to the French one and you will realize that French is completely an other language - French is "un Creole qui a reussi", as a Parisian linguistic professor say....

greg, Elsasser are like you still influenced by 19th century Gallio-nationalistic propaganda. I say: vive l'europe!

« Guest » : « greg, Elsasser are like you still influenced by 19th century Gallio-nationalistic propaganda. I say: vive l'europe! ».

Et toi tu es profondément influencé par ta complète ignorance et ta mauvaise foi peu ragoûtante.




« Guest » : « No Aquaeducts, no villae rusticae, no Roman viae, no Roman laws, no Roman language, no decadence, no corruption, no slavery etc. anymore (...) ».

Tout ça a subsisté. La plupart des barbares étaient déjà culturellement romanisés. Ceux qui ne l'étaient pas déjà le sont devenus. Il faut être aveugle pour ne pas s'en rendre compte. Cela dit, les apports germaniques ont existé, c'est indéniable.




« Guest » : « (...) a new language (Romanic = Germano-Latin) (...) ».

Voilà, nous avons notre Ouest n° 2. Ce qui nous ramène à ce que je te disais plus haut : tu es profondément influencé par ta complète ignorance.

<<<Tout ça a subsisté. La plupart des barbares étaient déjà culturellement romanisés. Ceux qui ne l'étaient pas déjà le sont devenus. >>>

The Romanisation of barbars was the project of the Rome's leaders in order to strengthen the Roman army and to populate areas deserted by plagues, wars and starvation. What they did not realized early enough was the fact that inviting too many Germanic barbars into the Roman army and into the Roman imperium led to a Germanisation of the army and the colonies. The Roman imperium was not suddenly destroyed by the invasions. The massive but stepwise infiltration of Germanic people resulted in that the formerly mighty senatorial classes of Rome and the Italic-, Gallic- and Hispanic-Roman population were gradually replaced by barbars who changed everything that was formerly Roman into a new Germano-Latin and christian culture.

"greg, Elsasser are like you still influenced by 19th century Gallio-nationalistic propaganda"

Did you really read what I wrote or are you only stupid?
I just post here to note that Alsatians, Bretons and Basques are different than frenchmen. They own a non-romane culture, language and bloodline. Theirs ancestries lived another past with others heros and cultur myths.

I don't buy this made-up Gallio nationalistic propaganda how you said.
Each one have these origins, just respect everybody but don't lie about your identity!

<<" the Goths in Catalonia (=Goth-land), the Lombards in Lombardia, the Burgundians in Swittzerland and Bourgogne and (this is surely the main block) the Franks in the France. "

all these lands were name with the name of the leading tribes that created the kingdoms, not because the population would be coming from these tribes. you're deeply confused by the semantic proximity of the words "franc" and "france". their meaning, and to people to which they relates are completly different.
>>

--It's not unreasonable to assume that following a conquest event that males of the conquered nation suffer heavier losses to their numbers than the conquerors do, right (that's usually why they lost)? And when the lands (France, Spain, Italy, etc) were conquered by germans, the endemic populations suffered such blows to their male populations, resulting in greater numbers of women who reasonably would have been taken by the conquerors, true? (this is nothing new in history.)
--Secondly, an unfortunate reality of war and conquest is murder (of endemic males), pillaging and rape (of endemic women). This activity would have ensued for years after the initial conquest event, and magnified the conquerors blood-lines and 'influence' upon the succeeding generations disproportionate to their actual numbers.
--Third (and I know this is not a nice subject, but please bear with me) the children of the conquerors (i.e. either full-blooded german, or half-blooded german) would be given more rights, freedom, privelege, etc., produce more, and more influential offspring, who would go on to form the foundation of the future nations of France, Spain and Italy, yes? Think about it reasonably...it's what really happened.

--so when you buck at the UNGODLY and UNTHINKABLE possibility that you (Frenchman, Spaniard, Italian...) might be a german, or worse yet, a BARBARIAN as you call those ancestors you'd rather not claim to admit, you only show distain and disgust for yourselves. Face it. Embrace it.

<<<--so when you buck at the UNGODLY and UNTHINKABLE possibility that you (Frenchman, Spaniard, Italian...) might be a german, or worse yet, a BARBARIAN as you call those ancestors you'd rather not claim to admit, you only show distain and disgust for yourselves. Face it. Embrace it. >>>

Thanks a lot, Guest2, that is exactly the point!

As for Elsasser's:
<<<<Did you really read what I wrote or are you only stupid? I just post here to note that Alsatians, Bretons and Basques are different than frenchmen. >>>

I did read and understood what you wrote, but I still state that great parts of the Frenchmen (especially in the North and East of French teritory) are ethnically and in respect to culture and language NOT different from modern Alsatians, since they have as well Germanic ancestors, drink beer and wine, work hard, have good technical and organisational skills, hate curruption and speak a Germano-Latin Creole.

<<<Alsacians own a non-romane culture, language and bloodline. >>>

And so do the Frenchmen!

<<<Theirs ancestries lived another past with others heros and cultur myths. >>>>

It is right that greg and Guest have others heros and cultur myths than you, but myths are not facts. What is really irrational is that even young Alsatians, influenced by the French 19th century nationalistic propaganda still present in school books, start to think that they are descendants of Celts or Romans and that they are of Latin culture. Try to say on the maked place of Strasbourg that Alsatians are of Germanic decendance and you will see the reaction;-)

<<<I don't buy this made-up Gallio nationalistic propaganda how you said. Each one have these origins, just respect everybody but don't lie about your identity! >>>>

It's up to you to buy or not historical facts. The same way you think that Alsacians should not deny their Germanic origins and culture, I think that the Frenchmen should not deny their Germanic origins and culture either! They should learn the Germanic tongue of their ancestors (for example Francique, Allemanic and/or at least modern German) in school, and stop to adhere to absurd myths like France being the land of a Celtic/Ligurian people with Latin language and culture.

Ouest : « Thanks a lot, Guest2, that is exactly the point! ».

Non, mon pauvre ami, là n'est pas la question. Tu te trouves sur un site de linguistique, et non sur un site de biologie, de génétique ou que sais-je encore... D'autre part tu ne parles ni ne comprends le français (encore moins l'ancien français — sans parler des langues d'Oc) et tu viens pérorer ici avec deux ou trois petits copier-collers dont tu ne saisis même pas la signification ?!? Ton comportement frauduleux est grossier ; c'est ce qui permettra à tout un chacun de n'ajouter foi à aucune de "tes" pénibles tirades.




Ouest : « <<<Alsacians own a non-romane culture, language and bloodline. >>> And so do the Frenchmen! ».

Tu n'es jamais aussi authentique que lorsque tu laisses libre court à tes penchants de cuistre. Ce qui rend également service aux novices égarés qui te liraient par mégarde.




Ouest : « It is right that greg and Guest have others heros and cultur myths than you, but myths are not facts. What is really irrational is that even young Alsatians, influenced by the French 19th century nationalistic propaganda still present in school books, start to think that they are descendants of Celts or Romans and that they are of Latin culture. Try to say on the maked place of Strasbourg that Alsatians are of Germanic decendance and you will see the reaction;-) ».

Ton français est inexistant. Ton anglais est disetteux. Tu n'entends rien aux langues et encore moins que rien à la linguistique. Tu ne sais ni raisonner ni objecter. Ton ignorance du pays dont tu parles est totale. Quel est le sens de ta démarche ? Tu es en demande de reconnaissance ou tu cherches l'adresse d'un bon psy ?




Ouest : « It's up to you to buy or not historical facts. The same way you think that Alsacians should not deny their Germanic origins and culture, I think that the Frenchmen should not deny their Germanic origins and culture either! They should learn the Germanic tongue of their ancestors (for example Francique, Allemanic and/or at least modern German) in school, and stop to adhere to absurd myths like France being the land of a Celtic/Ligurian people with Latin language and culture. »

Pourquoi ne t'appliques-tu pas ce que tu conseilles aux autres de faire ? Apprends le français et l'ancien français ; l'occitan et l'ancien occitan ; l'allemand et l'ancien haut-allemand ; l'anglais et le vieil-anglais.

Et au lieu de projeter tes propres délires obsessionnels sur autrui, commence par consulter un spécialiste pour toi-même.