help with meaning

Pos   Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:57 am GMT
What's the difference between "a thin vale of native speakers" and "a thin veil of native speakers" and which is the correct use here?

<<But then I asked my mom and she says it doesn't sound quite right, so I don't know. I guess perhaps the thin veil/vale of native speakers know best sorta falls apart here?>>
furrykef   Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:56 am GMT
I hadn't even heard the word "vale" before. It was probably just a typo; "thin veil" is a common expression. The sentence still doesn't make much sense to me, though... beneficii probably was typing in haste, or without thinking (no insult intended to beneficii; I often type without thinking as well).

- Kef
beneficii   Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:56 pm GMT
Kef and Pos,

To clarify, I meant:

<<But then I asked my mom and she says it doesn't sound quite right, so I don't know. I guess perhaps the thin veil of "native speakers know best" sorta falls apart here?>>

Is that easier to make sense of?
furrykef   Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:22 pm GMT
What I'm having trouble with is I'm not sure what the "veil" refers to. (I know it's a metaphor, but I think the veil has to represent something.) I do get the idea of what you're saying, of course.

- Kef
Pos   Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:47 pm GMT
C'mon guys!

veil - a thing that conceals, disguises, or obscures.

Common expressions:

a veil of ignorance/secrecy/mystery/anonymity/modesty

What Benfizii mean by thin veil on native speakers" is anybody's guess.
beneficii   Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:01 pm GMT
Pos,

I said, "thin veil of...," not "thin veil on...."

Basically I meant that simply saying that "native speakers know best" itself is a veil put on what could be a deeper truth, or perhaps a deeper meaning. It's _thin_, because if you look harder and more closely you can perhaps see through it.

Mayhaps y'all understand now?
Pos   Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:40 pm GMT
<It's _thin_, because if you look harder and more closely you can perhaps see through it. >

Didn't you tell me not to question native speakers over usage?
beneficii   Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:05 am GMT
Pos,

Did I? Well, what happens if you get two native speakers from the same society speaking the same dialect of the same language disagreeing?
Pos   Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am GMT
<Well, what happens if you get two native speakers from the same society speaking the same dialect of the same language disagreeing? >

Well, what happens if you get a native speaker and a nonnative speaker disagreeing?
beneficii   Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:45 am GMT
Pos,

"Well, what happens if you get a native speaker and a nonnative speaker disagreeing?"

Well, that seems to happen a lot, so that's not at all remarkable. Also, for some reason people don't consider non-native speakers to be good judges of the languages in which they are non-native speakers.

What is remarkable however is two native speakers disagreeing, because it contradicts the fundamental assumption of a lot of linguists, namely that native speakers of the same dialect all agree on the aspects of the language and know everything perfectly (with a couple mistakes that in hindsight know were incorrect) and they're the final judge. And they do whole scientific studies using native speakers as test subjects, observing them judge various bits of speech and text do see if it feels right (they always seem to note some disagreement however), so they know whom to mark as non-native. Of course, such things seem hardly scientific at all, but there is the state of modern linguistics.
furrykef   Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:57 am GMT
<< Didn't you tell me not to question native speakers over usage? >>

Since I also said something that could be construed that way, I'll clarify my own point. "Rename to" sounds natural to me, to beneficii, and obviously to other native speakers, so it is absurd to say that it is a non-native construction. It might or might not be Good English(TM), but it is still a native construction.

That doesn't mean that native speakers are unquestionable. It often happens that a non-native speaker has a better grasp of a particular subject than a native speaker, such as the difference between "who" and "whom", or when to use the subjunctive mood. But this same speaker still cannot condemn using "who" in place of "whom", or the indicative in place of the subjunctive, as a "non-native error", because native speakers know darn well that people say things like "Who should I give this to?" or "I wish I was there." (In fact, "Whom should I give this to?" is very rare nowadays.) Of course, the usage of "rename to" isn't nearly as universal, but the point still stands. The speaker might condemn it on the grounds that it breaks established rules of grammar, but not that it's "non-native".

- Kef
M56   Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:13 am GMT
<What is remarkable however is two native speakers disagreeing, because it contradicts the fundamental assumption of a lot of linguists, namely that native speakers of the same dialect all agree on the aspects of the language and know everything perfectly (with a couple mistakes that in hindsight know were incorrect) and they're the final judge.>

Which linguists claim that? The linguist I know and read take many factors, apart from sharing the same dialect, into consideration. Age, social-class, taste in music, literature, and race all play a part in the choices and preferences a speaker uses - even if using the "same" dialect. The dialect (socio-dialect) called Standard English is a great example of that. Maybe you should be reading socio-linguists.
Pos   Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:21 am GMT
<It might or might not be Good English(TM), but it is still a native construction. >

As are these:

"I'm not going nowhwere" is a native construction. Would you advise ESL student to use it?
Pos   Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:24 am GMT
<<Of course, the usage of "rename to" isn't nearly as universal, but the point still stands. The speaker might condemn it on the grounds that it breaks established rules of grammar, but not that it's "non-native". >>

And how do you know that such usage is not influenced by another language or logic of that language?

To me, "rename to" sounds like the kind of mistakes a Spanish speaker of English would use.
M56   Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:29 am GMT
Keffy, is this nonnative use of English?

"She is knowing the answer."

"He does be working every day."

"Did you eat yet?"